The National Assembly has unveiled its plan to begin the process of constitution amendment. What was the experience like in your last efforts?
Well, we had the courage to amend the constitution extensively in the seventh Senate, and the president as far as I know, justly signed that document and later there was controversy about it. That, to me, would have been a major milestone. Now, the problem that arose thereafter and covering the obstacles we had before then because it was a major struggle we had to amend that constitution the way we did. Nigeria is a plural society; people come from different backgrounds, the region, ethnicity and all that. Sometimes, they come to the assembly with some of these sentiments. So, the major problem we have is what seems to be acceptable to you as a southerner probably may not be acceptable to your colleague from the North, or may be people from different religious divide. So, this has been a major issue. Some people see things from different perspective, maybe because from their own understanding of the issues involved or maybe pressures from home or just for sheer politics.
Do you think we will ever have progress with the present structure?
In amending the constitution, it isn’t just the National Assembly that’s involved; the state Houses of Assembly are involved. So, you must carry the state governors along. If they don’t agree with you, or if their interest seems to be affected in any of the amendments, they will do everything possible to stop the assemblies from accepting it. At some point, when we delved into the issues of the independence of the state Houses of Assembly; most of the states refused to vote along the line of National Assembly.
Were you surprised that even the states didn’t vote for their own financial independence?
Yes, I should be surprised but it wasn’t as if I wasn’t expecting it. However, over time, because things progress, I think in the last efforts, the state Houses of Assembly came together and said, ‘look, we are prepared to lose our jobs; we have to get these things done.’ And they were able to push it in spite of the stress from some governors that, ‘Mr Speaker, if you get these things done, you are gone!’ They still insisted that they will rather lose their seats than having these amendments pass their Houses of Assembly without passage.
Security is a burning issue now but nothing seems to be coming from the National Assembly since it is centralised; it is on the exclusive list. However, the security situation is dire even though there is no consensus whether it is State Police we need or Community Policing. What is your answer to this?
First of all, I have to sympathise with Nigerians. We are living in denial. The security situation is so bad and the bad news is that it will get worse because we aren’t dealing with it at all. We are living in denial. We have been talking about this for over 10 years and we keep talking and it is going to get worse until we do the right thing. First, Nigeria is a federal state; we accepted before independence that we are going to run the form of government suitable to our circumstances. So, since we accepted federalism as the best suited for us, we need to look at the components of federalism and how it works. Those other people practising federalism, how do they do it? And in those other places, what they do with security is to decentralise it because the idea of forming a federal system of government is that you have accepted to have so much diversities, respect those diversities to come into a loose kind of arrangement to allow the units continue to maintain some kind of independence in certain things that are peculiar to them. That’s why our forefathers accepted federalism as a form of government.
Now, they are talking about community policing. They are too different things but they are mixing the two concepts and that is even confusing our people the more. For me, it is a total distraction; a fraud because what they are telling us which they don’t seem to understand is that there is a problem between the community and the police itself. We need to address that lack of trust and confidence. We need to send message to the villagers, the community people that police are their friends, cooperate with them, and give them information. That’s what community policing is all about. If you have a federal system, you must have a complete package of a security architecture that will be able to deal with situations in a complex manner. We don’t have that right now.
So, why do we say ours is a fraud?
It is because what they are telling our people is that we need to do community policing, like police public relations; to build a relationship between them. They aren’t saying they are going to hire policemen to police any community. No! That isn’t what they are saying. The Inspector General of Police came and explained to us and I understood what he was saying. So, they are saying that they are going to get volunteers, who will be giving police information and they are going to mix with the community and find out what the challenges are. Why are they not trusting the police? That’s the issue here. They aren’t saying they are going to put more policemen in their community. No. But our people don’t seem to get it.
But they have accepted the Amotekun for the South-West.
Yes, Amotekun is a child of circumstance because unfortunately, the federal police we have now isn’t working and if you are pushed to the wall as an individual or a people, you must do something. That’s why they came together to say, ‘Ok, let us have a security outfit that can deal with our challenges at present while we are talking about the state police.’ That one is different from what the Federal Government is talking about for community policing. They have personnel who are going to deal with issues of security.
The Federal Government is saying it is a small layer of engagement with the people. What do you think?
Yes, some level of community police but not community policing.
But would you say bodies like Amotekun are illegal according to the constitution?
You see, that’s why under the constitution, you can’t set up a body and call it police. The South-West governors are smart. That’s why they are saying they aren’t setting up community police; they aren’t saying they are setting up state police. They say Amotekun, whatever that means. So if they had said they were setting up community police, with the word ‘police’ on it, then it is illegal, because the constitution says you can’t set up any other body except the Nigeria Police. Now the various parts of Nigeria are also doing it. So we have been living in denial. The missing link between state police and the National police and what we are proposing is regulation.
That’s what your bill proposes?
Exactly. That is it.
And you think that this time around it is going to be successful?
Well, I hope so but there is a proverb in our place. When you see the mother hen shouting that the hawk has taken her baby, it isn’t shouting so that the hawk will leave the baby. ‘I want the whole world to hear my voice that I object to this action.’ So, whether we succeed or not, we want the world to know, let Nigerians know that some of us care and are concerned as parliamentarians, regarding their security.
What happened to it the first time you introduced it?
I told you about the sentiments. Most parts of Nigeria don’t want the decentralised policing for obvious reasons. I will come to that. But it is gaining momentum; some of our colleagues, who never want to hear about it, are beginning to listen. Some are beginning to support it. Even if we don›t succeed this time, I can assure you, it is a matter of time, it will succeed. May be in future.
But why did your colleagues object then?
First of all, as I said, generally speaking, we have a major security challenge in Nigeria and until we apply the correct remedy, we may not get it right. Our security architecture, we need to deal with the foundation. Whatever you hear about community policing, the issue of small arms regulations and all that, it is like patching a cracked wall. It will come back. The problem here is that our people complain about abuse; they are saying governors will abuse it to fight their political enemies. That’s a genuine fear but that is exactly one of the reasons why the military government at the time brought national police. That was a big mistake. You found a problem, instead of resolving the problem you just wished it away. What they would have done was to take a simple look at what has happened in other jurisdictions even here in Nigeria. Remember that prior to, I think 1979, there was nothing like the National Judicial Council (NJC). But they now realised that states can abuse judges in their jurisdictions and they came up with the idea of NJC that now regulates the entire judiciary in the country no matter it›s jurisdictions: It controls both the states and the Federal Government and that›s why it isn›t possible for a governor in Imo State, for instance, to use the judge or judiciary in Imo state to intimidate his political opponents. And just like the NJC, the National Police Service Commission should be able to appoint state commissioners of police on the recommendations of its state counterpart and then make recommendations to the governor. The governor will take to the state House of Assembly just like judges to approve the appointment. You can only remove that man by the prayer from the state assembly or in other very exigent circumstances.Once you put those things in place, nobody is going to abuse it. But, let us take for granted that they are abusing it, the most you can stay as a governor is eight years. Those who setup the Economic and Financial Offences Commission (EFCC) and the Independent Corrupt Practices and other Related Commission (ICPC), they are no longer in power, those agencies are still harassing them and their relations now. That›s what is happening in Canada.
But there is fear that bodies like Amotekun could be used to victimise ethnic minorities in ethnic majorities’ stronghold. What is your take?
That’s what I am saying: that we haven’t been able to settle down, look at ourselves in the face and say, look I am opposed to state police or regional police for the following reasons and see how those fears will be addressed. We sit down and look at how it can be addressed. If you aren’t satisfied, we look for other solutions. But they just simply dismiss it. It is a matter of all of us sitting together and itemising our fears and addressing them because it is better for us to address those fears than to allow the situation as it is and it will consume all of us.
Let us talk about the agitation for self-determination by IPOB. We saw what happened in Nuremberg in Germany, you said you have forgiven them
Yes, I have put it behind me.
You talked about them being misguided. Would you say the manner in which we have pushed certain agitations have been misguided?
Yes, definitely. You see, we are living in a much civilised world. Most of the very successful separations have come through conversations and dialogue. Not by fighting or any kind of armed struggle. In those places where you have armed struggles, those armed struggles didn’t achieve anything until they came to a round table. So I believe that if we as a country is to go our separate ways, the best thing for us is to convince everybody to come to a round-table and look at the terms, so that we can travel from the South to the North, and from East to the West, even after that and be able to have a handshake.
But has south east leaders been able to speak quite frankly with the youths?
Well, it is a continuous engagement. Those who experiences the civil war have been saying we don’t want to have a war on our hands again, we don’t want to put our youths on arms way, please let us just have a conversation. Whether they’re issues that are being raised, we can’t wish that away. The youths have issues which are germane; the difference is how do we address these issues? Some are saying we need to address it through violent agitation; others are saying there must be a dialogue. So, let us have an intellectual approach to this, let’s have a conversation. This is the departing lines. But whether the people of the South-East have any genuine complaint, yes, there are lots of complaints.
You genuinely believe your people have been marginalised?
Yes, of course.
In what areas?
Look at the security sector, nobody from the South-East or Igbo-speaking part of Nigeria is holding any of the security agencies. I am sure if there is a Commission for Boys’ Scout, they won’t have any of them there– from the police, to the army, the Air Force, just take it. It doesn’t make for unity; it doesn’t make for cohesion and that is part of the issues causing the agitation.