Mukhtari Shagari (CFR), a lawyer and former Minister of Water Resources, is son of the Second Republic President, the late Alhaji Shehu Shagari. In this interview by KUNLE ODEREMI, he talks about the ongoing 60th independence anniversary of Nigeria, challenges confronting the country, calls for removal of service chiefs, politics of godfathers, vote trading, and other national issues.
What would you consider as the high and low points of Nigeria as it celebrates 60 years as an independent country from Britain?
First, our high point is that we should thank the Almighty that we are still one united country. Some people may have their own misgivings, which is normal. The most important thing is that, despite the civil war we fought, despite the crisis we had in the First Republic and despite the insecurity that we have in the country today, Nigeria remains a country to reckon with internationally. Nigerians are very resilient.
The low point we have is that first, we fought for independence because we wanted to be free, we wanted to develop, but if you compare Nigeria to other countries like Malaysia that we were at par with in the past, one will say that we have not done very well. But there is still light at the end of the tunnel. What we need to do is to believe in this country. We should understand that our unity counts; the more united we are, the stronger we are.
We are in a democracy; we should allow it to mature through free, fair and credible elections. Let’s eschew bitterness, corruption, greed, selfishness, tribalism and ethnicity.
But we have had successive administrations with each promising to tackle what many call core issues impeding the attainment of nationhood and national integration by the country. What will you say are those issues and challenges over the years?
I think the one single challenge is the fact that we have still not agreed that we are one. We see each other as Yoruba, Fulani, Ibibio, Igbo, Ijaw, Kanuri and so on. As soon as we de-emphasise the feeling and sentiment that we are Christians or Muslims, we would have overcome a major challenge. We should accept that we are brothers and sisters and that previously, we were just one nation here and there. God brought us together as one country. Another thing we need to do to move forward and get rid of these issues is that we must be sincere with each other.
You talked about dialogue, how do you mean? Are you suggesting we should hold another form of national conference, even though we have had so many conferences from the military era to the civilian dispensations?
Let’s be honest with ourselves. It is true that we have had a series of dialogue and conferences. But let’s ask ourselves: did we really go into those conferences honestly and faithfully with an open mind to come up with solutions to the issues? No! We normally go into the conferences with a fixed mindset, thinking that we are going to defend the interest of the North; the interest of the South-West; that I’m going there to defend the interest of the South-South or the interest of the South-East; incongruent agenda. We don’t really go there with an open mind with the aim of finding solutions to the problems affecting us nationally.
And I must say that the elite in the country are really the cause of our problem because the interests of the masses do not matter to them. Their major concern is usually their selfish desire from the conference in terms of leadership.
Are you saying that the principle of zoning in politics, for example, should be jettisoned because it has not in any way fostered national integration and merit?
One of the problems that I am talking about is that even the political parties normally don’t think of competence. They simply focus on who can win elections for them.
Then the issue of power rotation or zoning is one of those things making us think that one day, it will get to my turn. We need to believe and start thinking that it does not matter where a leader comes from. As long as he is credible, competent, honest, it does not matter which political party he belongs to. Once he emerges, he becomes the leader of all Nigerians; he has been given their mandate to govern and must treat everybody equal, irrespective if they voted for him or not.
About 21 years ago after military exit from power, the thought among most Nigerians was that the new dawn signified a journey to prosperity and self-actualisation by the distraught citizens. What do you think is wrong?
First of all, I think that we should congratulate ourselves that we are still a democracy; that leadership in the country is by choice; that people go to the poll to elect who they prefer to be their leader. Though we have had corruption creeping into elections, we can still congratulate ourselves that we have democracy. Now, if you ask if we have been able to achieve what we had expected to achieve, I will say no! We have not been able to achieve all that we needed to achieve largely because of selfishness, largely because in some cases, we were not focused. We need to have a national planning programme that whoever comes into office will strictly adhere to, nurture, sustain and implement.
The National Assembly should liaise with the executive arm of government to evolve a national plan for a period of 20 to 30 years, giving what you are going to do in agriculture, so that it does not matter who becomes the president, the projects will subsist as priority. If we do that, we will make progress. We need a paradigm shift.
When I became minister, I called all the directors and others and asked them to bring the list of all inherited ongoing projects with the proposed date of completion. So, I compiled the projects and approached President Obasanjo with the list and that my priority was to complete them before we moved forward. Of course, he agreed with me; we completed the projects and every year, we made sure we set aside money for the projects. Every project is a legacy for the people you are doing it for, if you provide a borehole in a village, if that is what they want, it is their legacy project.
Nigerians are on edge over the state of insecurity around the country: banditry, kidnapping, insurgency, I mean violent crimes all over. What will you say is the root cause of the problem?
Let me say that security is the responsibility of each and every one of us in the country; if you see something, say something. If you have information on security to give, give it to the authorities. Now, I think that the spate of insecurity these days has a lot to do with the harsh economic realities across the country. I must say honestly and sincerely that I do deeply sympathise with President Muhammadu Buhari because the president sold his own presidency to Nigerians on the fact that he would fight insecurity and get rid of it. But unfortunately, since he came and his party into power, the issue of insecurity has been escalating. In areas where there was peace before now, peace is almost completely absent.
I don’t know what is really wrong but I feel that Mr. President should try to find out. The people who work with him must tell him why insecurity is escalating. Every life must be protected. I do not subscribe to the idea that the problem of insecurity should continue so that in 2023, party A will win the election. No, that is unpatriotic. Let all Nigerians come together and say we have all fought insecurity to an end in the country. I heard that some members of the National Assembly can no longer go home; they cannot visit their constituencies. I think that is sad. We have to change the narrative; let us come together and fight the menace of insecurity.
What’s your view on the clamour that the president should relieve the present service chiefs for new ones into the nation’s security architecture to fight insecurity frontally?
The president was democratically elected by Nigerians, who believe he has the capacity to solve the problem of the country. And if he has put a set of people together to help him fight insecurity and despite their own effort, the situation is escalating and Nigerians who put him in power are now saying Mr President should drop the service chiefs and bring new ones, I think the president should listen.
A lot of people are already talking about the 2023 elections, presidency, Igbo and Yoruba and some in the North are keen. Is it too early or should power rotate in the name of zoning?
I have said it over and over and consistently too. Rotation or zoning is good because it makes some people feel that they have a sense of belonging and that one day, it will be their turn. But I have also said that the most important thing if we want to really move forward is not on that basis; it has to be our own; it has to be a Nigerian that is competent, that is capable.
But those who came up with the idea of rotational presidency felt that was the best way to unite the country. But I can tell you that if we maintain such stance, we will continue to see each other as Yoruba, Fulani, Igbo, and so on. The mistrust will persist.
As a former Minister of Water Resources, you are in a better position to X-ray the controversial Water Resources bill that generated so much heat among many Nigerians. What is your view on the issue?
The Federal Government should listen to Nigerians. If you come up with a bill that is creating controversy, the best way is to withdraw that bill and go back to the drawing board. Listen to the voice of the people because the government was elected by the people. What are you really fighting for? In most cases, there is a lot of mischief; people tend to create problems where there is none. For me, I don’t really know why we need this bill.
Do you agree with those who say Nigeria is more divided now than before given the rising agitation for self-determination, restructuring and power devolution, and so on?
As far as I am concerned, Nigeria is still one united country that has problems. It is the problems of ethnicity, religiosity, of people thinking that I am from this area, this man should not live in my area; we have all these issues. I do not think that Nigeria is actually divided. Nigeria is only divided when it comes to the issue of leadership.
What is your attitude to the issue of godfathersim in politics, which a lot of people say is a bad omen for the country? Or how healthy do you believe is the syndrome?
One of our major problems in politics is godfatherism. Generally, godfathers do not care about the people; they care about themselves and the clique around them. What happened in Edo State governorship election on September 19 and to some extent, what happened in Sokoto State, where Governor Waziri Tambuwal left Aliyu Wammako; he stood on his own and contested for the governorship election and won. That has brought an end to godfatherism in politics in Sokoto for example. What has happened in Edo has also brought an end to godfatherism in politics in that state. If we take this trend together, it tells you that the politics of godftahetrism has almost come to an end in the country.
Another untoward tendency in the politics of the country is vote trading, which has reduced votes to cheap commodities with specific price tags. Is it a reflection of the kind of democracy Nigeria deserves?
It is not the kind of democracy we should have or deserve. This is where I blame the politicians; this is why I do not like the idea that I must be in power by hook or crook. I believe the politicians must come back to their senses and allow the electorate to vote based on their preferences and choice without coercion and without compromise. Politicians must come up with programs and manifestoes that they can sell to the electorate. And when promises are made, the politicians should fulfill them.
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