General Martin Luther Agwai served as Nigeria’s Chief of Army Staff before becoming the Chief of Defence Staff. He also led the United Nations-African Union Peacekeeping Force in Darfur before retiring from the Nigerian Armed Forces in 2009. In this interview with ISAAC SHOBAYO, the former CDS, now chairman of the Middle Belt Brain Trust (MBBT), discusses a range of critical issues, including insecurity, farmer-herder clashes, and state policing, among others.
Sir, there are a lot of pressure groups in the Middle Belt; why is it so hard for Middle Belters to unite behind a single banner?
On a lighter note, I want to say, why don’t we have a one-party state in the whole world? Maybe that would make things easier. But there are areas of emphasis, and I think that’s the most important thing. The area of emphasis—first and foremost, Middle Belt Brain Trust (MBBT) is completely different from any of those organizations you have heard of. We are not a political organization. We are not a religious organization. We are just individuals who, of our own voluntary acceptance, decided to form a small group, only 15 of us.
We are made up of people across different fields—specialists in inter-religious affairs, politicians, economists, security experts, and social development professionals. We include men and women, Muslims and Christians from different ethnic groups in the southern part of the Middle Belt.
We are concentrating on five states—Plateau, Benue, Nasarawa, Taraba, and Kaduna. That’s our area of emphasis, and we are indeed all from those five states. Our aim is to be a brain trust. We are not looking to go and dig wells or execute projects directly. No. What we are actually out to do is work with people using our expertise in different areas, find those who can execute those programmes — not that we are the ones doing it ourselves. We don’t even go around raising money. Instead, we try to find those who can raise money or organizations that believe in us. We sit down, agree on what the needs are, and then they address the needs.
I’ll give you an example. We have looked at the land tenure system. We have looked at the much-talked-about farmer-herder crisis. We have even looked at individual ethnic group challenges that have been there for a long time. We have engaged with our royal fathers, the traditional rulers, to ensure that, as custodians of our culture and traditions—people look up to them for peace, stability, and tranquillity—we support and empower them. These are all the things that we do. I’ll give you an example. We have had training for traditional rulers in Benue under the Tor Tiv. We have gone to Ochidoma. Before we go to any state, we engage with the government. We introduce ourselves, explain what we are doing, and how we want to sensitize our people to move with time. We have had training for traditional rulers in Nasarawa. As I’m speaking with you now, we are working with other organizations and the government of Nasarawa to address the much-talked-about Basa conflict, and we are making very good headway.
We are also building capacity on conflict sensitivity—helping people understand how to avoid conflict, how to be sensitive in what they do, and how to ensure that their actions do not trigger more conflict. These are the kinds of things we focus on. We had a workshop on conflict sensitivity—understanding that some conflicts arise due to insensitivity in policies. Because we have experts in different areas within our group, we work with the government, traditional rulers, and the people to create this awareness.
In the states you mentioned, clashes between farmers and herders have become frequent occurrences. In the process, many individuals have been killed and sacked from their ancestral communities. What do you think about this?
Do you know that among our group, we have Fulanis? We have traditional farming experts in our group. We sit down and analyze these challenges. You see, some of these conflicts are created under disguise. And this is why we emphasize sensitivity. Is it normal that everywhere there are Fulanis and farmers, there is always conflict that cannot be resolved? Is this a new phenomenon? The cohabitation between Fulanis and other communities did not start five or 20 years ago.
So, what went wrong?
That is what we are studying. We conduct research within our group to understand what went wrong. Because if you don’t identify the root cause of a problem, you will never solve it. Some of the conflicts are fueled by land grabbing. Some arise from ignorance. Some stem from people holding on to outdated traditions from centuries ago and refusing to move with time. These issues take time to resolve. Some conflicts are simply acts of criminality. And from our findings, not all the challenges are caused by Fulanis. When it comes to kidnapping, it is not every case or every adult involved that is led by a Fulani or a bandit. There are even local individuals, including relatives, who have engaged in it. It is driven by greed; people wanting to become rich by force, living a false life, or settling old scores. Some commit these acts simply because someone wronged them, and they seek revenge. There are diverse reasons behind these actions, but for the convenience of some people, they try to make it look like it is just one thing.
This is part of what we are working on with the security organizations in Nasarawa. We are collaborating with security agencies, such as the police and the military to properly train vigilantes who will work daily. After all, it is impossible to have all the Nigerian policemen or armed forces stationed in every nook and corner of the country. The best type of security is community security—where people in a community know one another, grow up together, and live together. Conflict is inevitable in life. But why should being aggrieved lead someone to burn down a library, a school, or a hospital built by the government? Why destroy resources meant for development? If the government has to spend money rehabilitating what was destroyed instead of moving forward with new projects, progress is hindered. These are some of the things our group is tackling—quietly, in a small way, but with effective results.
Sir, in your recent presentation at a seminar, you posited that internal crises have overtaken external aggression globally. What do you mean by this?
Well, how many times have Ghana, Cameroon, or Niger attacked Nigeria? In your lifetime, how often have you seen forces from Cameroon, Niger, or Benin—our closest neighbors—march into Nigeria to attack us? I won’t even mention Ghana or other distant countries. The real issue is that, for over 15 years, we have been dealing with Boko Haram. For over a decade, we have faced kidnapping and banditry in the North-West and North-East. In the South, we have struggled with kidnapping and illegal oil bunkering. Are these external problems? No, they are internal. That is what I meant.
What is the way out of this?
The way out lies in addressing the root causes. If you want to destroy a tree, you don’t just cut the branches. If you don’t uproot it, within one or two seasons, it will grow again. We must identify the root causes of these crises. The solution may not come today or tomorrow, but ignorance, lack of education, and lack of mentorship are key factors. If we mentor our children the way our fathers and grandfathers did, things will change. Our value system must be redefined. We all know right from wrong, but if we don’t model integrity, how can we expect our children to follow it? Children don’t do what they are told; they do what they see. If they constantly hear their parents scheming on how to defraud others or engaging in corrupt practices, they will grow up copying the same behavior. Education is crucial; many people manipulate others by playing on religious and ethnic sentiments. They claim, “Our tribe is being cheated,” without any factual statistics. If people are uninformed, they become easy targets for manipulation, leading to unnecessary destruction.
We need a long-term, strategic approach. Where do we want Nigeria to be in the next 10 to 15 years? Once we define this, we must set yearly goals to achieve it. People always ask for quick solutions, but the truth is, if it took us 20 years to reach this state, we cannot fix it in 20 days or even 20 months. It will take time, but we must remain focused and execute our plans systematically.
Some people have rejected the idea or stereotype that conflict in the Middle Belt is a clash between farmers and herders, claiming that it is an act of terrorism. What do you think about this?
This is a narrative, not necessarily the reality. If we take the time to examine the root causes, we will understand why someone would wake up and kill another person. What does that person really want? Often, the mind is poisoned, and the situation escalates into revenge, even when people do not fully understand the issue. Let me give you a quick example: An Igbo man and a Hausa man were in a market. The Igbo man sold spare parts, and the Hausa man needed one for his vehicle. He bought the part on credit, promising to pay the next market day. When the day came, he couldn’t pay, so he asked for more time. By the third market day, when he still hadn’t paid, the Igbo man insisted on getting his money and grabbed the Hausa man by the neck. People in the market saw this and started spreading different narratives—some said, “Igbos are attacking Hausas,” others said, “Christians are attacking Muslims.” A simple debt issue was turned into an ethnic and religious crisis.
The reality is that everyone has their own reasons for their actions. But if we approach these issues with sensitivity, honesty, and a deep understanding of the challenges, we can find real solutions. However, if we keep spreading narratives without facts—such as claiming farmer-herder clashes when, in reality, an entire family was murdered in their home—we will continue fueling division.
Our group will continue to preach peace and dialogue at the grassroots level. We are sensitizing those in government, traditional institutions, and communities to engage in honest discussions and find lasting solutions. Vengeance and grievances—grievance management. That’s what we are doing: grievance management and policy sensitivity. When you want to have a policy, have you thought it through? Is there anything that can be resolved or understood? Have you discussed with the people to know what they need so that you can help them as a government, a traditional council, or an NGO? Or do you just assume you know it all?
What are your thoughts on the notion that politicians are mostly responsible for these crises?
You see, what I would say to our politicians is simple. If you have gone into politics to render service to the people, then you should see it as a game. If two people are contesting for a seat, there’s no way you can split the seat in half. There’s only one seat, and only one person will win.
If you don’t get it and I do, why should you destroy those who didn’t support you? And if I get it, why should I see those who opposed me as my enemies? We always see the other person as an enemy. That is why we don’t see ourselves as co-travelers on the same journey. To our politicians, I say this: Let’s play politics with principles. If the people agree that they want free education, for example, party A will say, “This is how we plan to provide free education.” Party B will say, “No, our approach is better.” Then, the voters decide which policy serves them best. But we must stop this mentality that because you voted against me, you are my enemy forever.
We take anyone outside our party as an enemy. And this lack of principles is why people switch from one party to another and then back again. If we had principles, that wouldn’t be the case. Finally, as John Maxwell said, “Everything begins and ends with leadership.” If we have the right leadership at the community, ward, district, local government, state, and national levels, we will have a country that is truly free.
Sir, do you buy into the belief that the military is overstretched in the face of insecurity in the country?
Yes, I believe the military is overstretched. But that is because we have not put the right policies and training in place at the community level. That is why I say we need to train communities to be able to defend themselves—not necessarily with guns.
When we talk about defending Nigeria, people immediately think of weapons. But defense is also about awareness. If I see something suspicious, who do I report it to? How do I report it? How do I collect evidence that can help law enforcement? How do I describe my location so that security agencies can find me quickly?
For example, if there is a fire in my house and I call the fire brigade, how do I describe it in a way that gets them there as fast as possible? These are the things we need to train people on. Once we have a sensitized population that knows what to do, then those who are paid to handle security can focus on their core duties.
What is your position on state police?
Again, this is where the challenge lies. I am neither for nor against state police. Policing is policing, whether done at the state, federal, or local government level. There was a time in this country when we had local government police, and we said we didn’t need them. Then, we opted for central policing. Now, people are saying state police is better. If proponents can convince the government and legislators to adopt state policing, that’s fine. But the real issue is not whether we have state or federal police. The real issue is: Who is doing the policing? Are they doing it right? Are they policing in a way that serves the people? Or are they using the system to favor a certain group? Are we selecting the right, qualified people, those who are motivated and genuinely want to serve? Or are we just giving jobs to “our boys” and our relatives? These are the real issues that create problems. If we don’t address them, it doesn’t matter whether we have state or federal police.
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