Chairman of the National Caretaker Committee of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) Senator Ahmed Mohammed Makarfi, recently appeared on the Platform, a current affairs programme of the Nigerian Television Authority (NTA), where he fielded a variety of questions. Group Politics Editor, TAIWO ADISA, who was on the panel, presents the excerpts:
Recently, we were told you were involved in an accident. Thank God you are in good health but for the records, what really happened on the Abuja/Kaduna highway that day?
I think a Peugeot 406 was trying to overtake a truck. Somehow, it lost control, hit the truck and somersaulted backwards. We were immediately behind them, so of course it hit us and the truck rammed on us and pushed us into the bush. But God so kind, nobody in my vehicle sustained any injury. There were injuries on the other side.
The proposed PDP non-elective national convention, is it an affirmation that the party’s crisis is over?
Well, we have learnt a lot of lessons. When you look back to what we’ve gone through, right from May 21, 2016, when we went for the Port Harcourt convention, all the litigations, by the time the Supreme court gave the judgment, there wasn’t enough time, going by the PDP constitution and the Electoral Act, to conduct an elective convention and some states had not concluded ward, local government or state congresses. In some states, there were sharp factionalisation because in the general views of members of the party, there is need for reconciliation before heading for an all-inclusive convention. And the consensus was that some reasonable time should be given to the caretaker committee to conduct the congresses that were inconclusive and also try to reconcile as much as possible with aggrieved party members before we head for an all-inclusive elective convention, so that by the time you go for that, it will be really inclusive. But if we had gone for that, where we are coming from is bound to exclude a number of people and we would have ended up going to square one.
What exactly do we expect on August the 12, 2017?
First of all the National Executive Committee (NEC) of the party could have even extended the tenure of the caretaker to be ratified at a Convention. But to give it greater reinforcement and avoid any legal tussle, it was thought rather to go to a convention because the Supreme Court has affirmed that convention is supreme and whatever decision it takes is binding. So, we said let’s not take chances, because there may still be people that like litigation. Therefore, we chose to go for convention, where the issue of extension of tenures would be handled.
Is it the NEC that decided that they should go for the non-elective convention?
Of course, the decision to go for the convention is the decision of NEC, not any individual.
But, one of the protagonists to the crisis, former Governor Ali Modu Sherif is saying you didn’t invite him to the NEC meeting?
Invitation to NEC meetings was not based on an individual basis. Since PDP was formed, its advert are always in the papers and the electronic media. No individual either receives a personal invitation for either BOT or NEC. There were news bars in the electronic media, there were publications in national dailies. Nobody needed to be called to be reminded to attend NEC meeting. So, it was his choice to stay away.
The PDP has a plan to review its constitution. Would it be part of be non-elective convention?
No. You see, if you don’t follow the procedure for constitutional amendment, it will be a nullity. You recall that the FCT High Court has ruled that even the appointment of Modu Sheriff was null and void, because it was based on a constitutional amendment that did not follow the due process, and the missing point was that the amendment was not filed with INEC within the time frame required. So, it nullified the entire amendment and that ruling has not been appealed by Modu Sheriff or anybody. So, as it stands, based on the law that his appointment was never even valid, borrowing a leaf from that, we cannot cut corners in amending the constitution. What we did was to distribute a draft amendment, so that members can forward any further amendment to the draft or even new issues. Then after that, we will collect that and make a further memo to BOT, to NEC and when that is approved, they are now sent to states who have 30 days within which to agree in writing to any of the amendments or all of the amendments, as the case maybe. Any amendment that has two-thirds support from the states will now be the amendment that will be forwarded to convention for approval. So, what we did was just a process, but not even commencing because no memo has gone to BOT or NEC, but further making available to members the proposed amendment taken from the Ekweremadu committee and Jerry Gana committee. We consolidated the two, but still we want further inputs, so that by the time we come with the real memo on constitutional amendment, it would have received a wider input.
You will agree with me that indiscipline in the party has cost you a lot. Would you say now that the PDP has learnt its lessons?
Absolutely. You know, at that NEC when the date for a special non-elective convention was approved, it was also approved that the caretaker committee should set up two committees; one for reconciliation because we agreed that we must reconcile, not just for those who are aggrieved- the Sheriff group, but as far back as possible. We are not limiting our reconciliation to any particular period of time. Then, the disciplinary committee; some people misinterpreted it to mean that we want to go back and be vindictive. We said no; we are drawing a line from the day the Supreme Court ruling came. Don’t go back saying somebody agreed with you or disagreed with you. Look from that date, who is doing anything that is intended to undermine the party? If you don’t begin to discipline members, the issue of indiscipline will actually continue. So, we have learnt indeed our lesson and while reconciling, we are saying no to indiscipline and hence the decision to immediately set up these two committees.
As this reconciliation is going on, there is still crisis in some state chapters of the party. What are you doing to ensure that the PDP comes as one family during the non-elective convention?
As I said earlier, there were states that based on the NEC Ali Modu Sheriff chaired, presented a report on the congresses which NEC approved. Seven states were presented by him as inconclusive, which means there were still matters to be resolved; some parallel congresses, and we said we are not going back over that. That’s a starting point. In some of these states like Anambra, you have three parallel congresses. So, for any court to say one is even valid is neither here nor there because there are three parallel congresses that our NEC recognised and approved. In some states, two parallel executives, and we said the decision of NEC, even when Modu Sheriff was on seat was that there were two-parallel congresses. Our position now is that you people should reconcile yourselves and then we go and conduct a fresh congress so that it is all inclusive; it is unifying. But you find them flexing muscles, one wanting to assume authority over the other and we said no, we are not going to allow it — even if you supported us. In the spirit of going forward, accommodating everybody, we are not just going to close our eyes and say that we are going to breach what NEC had approved and override it. In any case, caretaker committee has no right to override any NEC decision. It’s only NEC that can reverse itself and at the moment, NEC has not reversed itself. So, we will not assume a position to begin to be lawless by reversing decision taken by NEC. So, what we are doing is talking to all of them, reconcile yourself. For example, in Osun State, it was reconciliation that brought about PDP winning a Senate seat. So, if you can reconcile and win election, why can’t we reconcile on the issue of party leadership so that we all move as one. Sometimes, you don’t encourage certain person’s interest to supersede collective interest.
If there is one party that suffers the issue of defection, it is the PDP. Are you reaching out to those former members who have defected to other parties to come back?
Of course, we are going back as far as we can go in terms of reconciliation. Maybe they jumped the ship too quickly; maybe they had anticipated that we are not going to come out victorious. But, we are confident that it is not just about the few that defected. We are confident that we are going to have an avalanche of inflow of credible men and women into the PDP and it’s a matter of time.
Those that defected that you are reaching out to now, are you also foreclosing the issue of litigation, particularly for legislators who are bound by Section 68(1) (g) of the Constitution. Are you foreclosing that?
We are not foreclosing that. But you see enough of litigations; because all these issues of going to court for what is political we can sit down and sort out. I think we should spare the courts and stop over exposing the courts to political issues that we can easily sit down as a family. So, our first, second and third choice is really to and discuss, to be litigious.
Within the political system and environment, one issue that seems to be raring its head, it even started as a build-up to the 2015 election – is the issue of hate speeches and it is becoming something else now, with even groups calling for secession and restructuring. Let’s look at the issue of hate speech first. As a party chairman, leader and former Senator, what are your thoughts and what are you telling PDP members?
As a party, we are the first formal group to come out and address a world press conference and condemned all these hate speeches. That’s when the avalanche of open statements assumed a wider national dimension. So, we didn’t shy away from coming out to say enough of these hate speeches. Yes, there are talks of restructuring. Of course, restructuring means different things to different people. So, let’s be understanding and build consensus on what we understand by restructuring.
But, some of your members who are involved in these hate speeches, have immunity because they are elected persons heading some groupings…
As a party and I assure you that I as chairman, Caretaker Committee, whenever any such appears, I reach out to such individuals and talk to them and I tell you, they see reasons when I talk to them. Sometimes, it’s not talking to somebody when you see that individual has overstepped the bounds or something like that. You don’t just begin to condemn somebody; reach out to the person, the person will see wisdom. So, such speech coming from any PDP member that we see or hear, we reach out and talk common sense to ourselves so that a repeat of such does not happen. But it’s not just about PDP. It’s nationwide. When you isolate the issue of addressing hate speeches to one political party or one part of the country, some other people will think you’ve taken side. It’s a matter that must be approached holistically and right now, the matter is being approached holistically. Right from the beginning, if this matter had been approached holistically, not trying to say who was right, whose one is legitimate, I think we could have avoided getting to where we are. But better late than never! At least across the nation now, everybody is speaking against hate speeches and there is the talk of let’s sit down, we are one nation, let’s be civil and discuss over this matter. They are not matters that we cannot sit down and discuss.
If you talk about the role of opposition, the common language we had when this administration came on was that the PDP was not ready for opposition, APC was not ready for governance. We’ve seen trend from PDP of silence, unlike what we saw when the APC was ACN and at formation, at that time when they were actually keeping the PDP on its toes. Why is the PDP silent and are you actually ready to go into opposition role now?
For a number of reasons, the first one is that we are very happy, we thank the APC for doing part of our job for us. Right from day one, they started opposing themselves and they are still opposing themselves and we hope they continue to do so. I don’t think they can stop opposing themselves anyway. Two, we also give more credit to Nigerians because they should not wait for a political party to even oppose any government, whether at local, state or national level. The people are feeling the pains, have taken the opposition – at state level; it doesn’t matter whether it’s PDP that is the political authority. At the national level, the political authority is APC. But of course, we were divided because of litigations and there were suspicion of some elements within us being used by certain forces, if not the government as an authority, at least by some powerful individuals in the government and when you are faced with such a situation, you cannot be an effective opposition party. That is what we have just come out from. I won’t tell people how we are going to do it; but we will do it in such a way that it is effective and it will achieve the needed objective of exposing the deficiencies of the APC-led government. But also, we want clean opposition. We don’t want to deny the credit that is due to the government of the day. But, there are few credits. The negativities are far more in number and that is what we emphasise to the electorate, so that when elections come, they will know that there are far more negative issues than any positive issues you can see in the current government; and give us a second chance to govern them.
You think they should have imposed the leadership…
It’s not about imposition. As I understand it, there was not openness with the members, so that members can understand the direction of the party and discuss it and go in as united APC legislators. They were left on their own and then suddenly, efforts to pull them together. It’s far more difficult when you let people take strong positions. They gave in to the party but the party pulled away from them; they gave in to government but government pulled back from them and you hardly will force them if they form a strong position. That was a terrible mistake. So, you have PDP legislators flexing muscles, having influence even in the House of Representatives because the leadership emerged with the solid support of PDP. So, it’s politics. They must give due recognition and cognizance to the PDP legislators and their views in legislation making.
Be that as it may, there are matters of also national interest. You shouldn’t turn executive/legislative rift as to substantially affect the welfare and wellbeing of Nigeria and Nigerians. So, we should know how far we limit the political differences, the conflict between legislature and executive and we should know when we have to just swallow our pride, whether executive, whether legislature and move forward in the interest of the nation.
Two years on, the eight National Assembly, Senate and the House is trying to review some aspects of the provisions of the 1999 Constitution. What are your thoughts?
The amendment of a Constitution is a continuous issue. But, it has been in the tradition in the life of any National Assembly, you will go through the same process. It’s cumbersome, it’s tedious and very soon, people will begin to forget how our constitution looks like. I think once and for all, we should address what is our (Nigerian) Constitution, not going by several attachments. In a few years, we will end up with Chambers or Oxford dictionary in the name of Nigerian Constitution, which is not good enough. But, we should not also take away the necessity to review our constitution and the fact that the suggested amendment can add value to our polity. But, it is that the process is too cumbersome. We need to actually promulgate an entire new constitution that is not cumbersome and not conflicting. This motion of everything being in the constitution is wrong. The constitution should address fundamental issues, while the rest are legislative issues. Legislative issues, you can easily amend them. But when you put everything in the constitution, as things change, for you to tamper with any one of such, you have to go through the long hub of amending the Constitution.
Let’s talk about the 2019 elections. You know the PDP has a policy regarding the zoning formula, where it zoned the Presidency to the North and other elective positions in the national leadership to the South. Where are we now?
I want to remind people of what Supreme Court judgment said basically; decision of convention is supreme. The question the Supreme Court was to answer directly is the issue of leadership. But, that is not the only decision taken at that convention. One of the decisions taken at that convention was zoning of the Presidency to North and elective National Chairman to the South and in general, the Supreme Court said the convention was valid and the decision supreme. Therefore, it applies to all the resolutions of the convention and one of such resolutions zones the Presidency to the North and the elective national chairman to the South. That has not changed.
Will you offer yourself to continue as chairman of the PDP?
I am not even contemplating that. You see, that’s why sycophancy creeps in and we lose focus. I have been entrusted to reorganise this party and put it on the right footing. If I now begin to think of any other interest, I will miss the point. I will be satisfied if I succeed in repositioning the party. Personal ambition of anybody who will agree to take this responsibility should actually not creep in. That’s part of the suspicion that derailed Modu Sheriff. Why should I take the same course?
But, there are still talks that Senator Ahmed Makarfi wants to run for presidential election.
In private or public, who have I ever confided that, that’s my focus? I’ve consistently said that my focus is let’s put PDP on the right footing. If you don’t have a vehicle to travel a thousand kilometres, don’t even intend making a journey of 2,000km. So, the vehicle is PDP. We need to rebuild PDP, and the opportunities are limitless for everybody that may aspire for whatever and at the end of the day, people will make their choices.
Talking about the 2019 elections, one of the burdens the PDP will battle is this burden of “corruption.” The current government has painted the party as having condoned corruption and its members shared money that belonged to the country and all of that. A number of people are being prosecuted and a lot of others are being investigated. Going to the next election, how do you want to rescue your party from that image?
If PDP members were stealing all the money but people were not hungry, people were going to school, people were not sick, now, such is not happening, yet people are hungry, people are ill, people can’t pay for school fees and there is no corruption, no stealing of the money. Please, do your arithmetic. I’m not saying that some wrongs did not occur under PDP. But, I have said a number of times, not the number of people because some people are being called over few thousands of Naira that maybe they were not in a position to know even the source. If you talk of political campaign money, I know that the centre has been funding the state as far back as 2003. In 1999, I can’t say because it was the military that handed over to us. But since 2003, I know that the centre has been funding the states and the states were never in a position to know where the money was actually coming from. So, if a wrong was done, it could not have been done by the states or local governments because it was not a new thing. We should focus and know where the wrong happened and actually limit it to that and deal with it at that level so that we can stop it happening.
Two, all those politicians, whether PDP or APC OR whichever that are being charged in court in terms of billions, maybe three Generals are being charged of corruption that in terms of value is more than the totality of the politicians; just three Generals and not to talk of those from the business sector; not to talk of those from the public sector. So, if we politicize corruption, we will never be able to get it right. It’s holistic. You find it in all institutions. You find it in the public service, you find it in the military, in the paramilitary; you find it everywhere. If you now tend to focus purely issue of corruption to politics and even then to a party that is not in government, the war will be lost. Dealing with corruption should be a holistic issue and I will want to see a situation where PDP, APC and parties will stand up on how we can collectively deal with corruption and also give the agencies charged with battling this menace an all-party political support to deal with this issue. Again the agency must also be protected and not be seen to be vindictive. In any case, it’s only when you are not in power that you can be assessed. So to probably assess whether the APC government is corrupt or not, you have to wait until when they are not in power.
To quote you, said the centre has always provided the financing for campaign. Having said that, it means we now need to reinvent the will in terms of political party finances and campaigns. What will you suggest as a departure from what you told us has been happening since 2003?
As part of the Constitution amendment in the PDP, one of the amendments is to introduce electronic registration of party members so that you can have a true membership record and payment of dues either annually as the case may be, thereby diversifying funding of the political party away from those in political authority. So, the PDP has a blueprint for that and that is part of actually what we are going to look at as we amend our constitution. I recommend same for all the political parties that resting on those in political authority to fund political parties, irrespective of the party, the PDP, APC or whatever party, that is wrong and we need to get away from that.
On a last note, what do we expect from the management of the PDP going forward?
First of all, we thank Nigerians for their patience with the suffering. We thank Nigerians for their prayers for PDP because if not for their prayers for PDP, maybe we will not be where we are today. I assure them that the PDP of today is not the PDP of yesterday. We will be a listening PDP. We are not going to be an arrogant PDP. We are not going to be a know it all PDP and we will walk with like minds.
You are sure there won’t be impunity anymore?
You can’t rule out impunity, but we will reduce it to the barest minimum. The human society is one in which you find impunity in one form or another. You can’t eliminate it hundred percent. But we will bring it to the barest minimum, so that it is insignificant.
and then