AT the moment, a popular topic in Nigeria is constitution review. So, what do you believe are the core issues and what should be the focus in reviewing the 1999 Constitution?
The 1999 Constitution is not perfect, but it is workable. The problem now is our honesty and commitment with the provisions of the constitution. The constitution provides for federalism because it has provided for central and state governments. Now, what this provision means for federalism is that it is what distinguishes federalism from the unitary system of government. It has been provided, but the implementation is the problem. People have refused to implement it as provided in the constitution because the state governments are supposed to be governments that should sustain themselves within their limits. But, this has not been allowed to happen. The state governments are so dependent. They should allow the state governments to play their roles and likewise the central government.
You have two forces: one refusing the state government to act and secondly, the central government is not capable of even coordinating because when you talk of making the state government so weak or the central government so weak, you are also destroying. We have an arrangement whereby we have the central government and federating units. Each of the federating units should be capable of sustaining itself without depending on the central government and the central government also capable of coordinating units and protecting Nigerians because we have problem that Nigeria is partly divided into ethnicity, nationality, religion and so on. We need a central government that can coordinate the federation and provide basis for peaceful, collective progress.
Don’t you think some of the challenges we have today is as a result of the fact that the centre has become so powerful, defeating the purpose of a federal arrangement?
Yes, it is too powerful, for instance, on revenue allocation. Why must we allocate about 60 per cent to the centre? The centre does not need up to that. The centre doesn’t needs more than 30 per cent and then you give the rest to the states and local governments; that is consistent with federalism. Let us avoid the abuse. If we avoid the abuse, the constitution will be workable. Allocating huge portion of the allocation to the central government is an abuse on our federalism. So, to make our constitution workable is something that has to be done.
Under the principle of federalism, it is the centre and the states that should possess a coordinate status. Why should we have local governments as be part of the federating units in Nigeria?
That is another abuse. The local governments should be left to the states and let the state governments decide whether or not they need the local governments. Let the states create as many local governments as they like. Over the years, the central government has been in love with the creation of local governments. That is an aberration in a federation. The central government should not make the local governments as part of the federating units because that will amount to undermining states, as well as undermining federalism. It should stop abusing the 1999 Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria. If we don’t stop it, the constitution will not be workable.
So, you are saying you are for the amendment of the document such that it will conform to universal principles of federalism where the centre and states can exist in coordinate relationship?
When we are talking about amending the constitution, we are also talking about true federalism. It makes no sense if we have one centre and 100 states. There must be a manageable number of states. What we have today however in Nigeria is really manageable. Even 60 states in Nigeria are manageable, provided the states are viable and the centre is highly coordinating. With the level of corruption and wastage in the federation, however, we can never have it right. Everybody is concerned, not with public interest, but with self-interest. Let us be reasonable about what we are talking about. I am after true federalism. Many of our people are after secession so that they can exploit the polity. All these people that are talking about the North, the South and the South-East are talking rubbish. When you examine their tendencies, they are not concerned about the people of the regions; they want to decentralise the centre so that they can have their own empire. All these groups: Arewa Consultative Form (ACF), Afenifere and Ohanaeze Ndigbo are secessionist groups. The ACF wants Nigeria in their hands and the same thing applies to the Afenifere and the Ohanaeze Ndigbo.
Let us talk of what really matters: the dignity of human person and socio-economic progress. Socio-economic progress in the South-East is better than in the North; there is no way you compare them. When you go to Ibadan, is the situation not better in terms of the condition of life of the people? Is it not better than Kano where you will see almajiris? When you go to Ibadan you will not see the almajiris because there is full dignity of the human person in Ibadan, though the difference is not much. If you go to London and Scotland, you will see what we can call the dignity of human person. That is what matters. All these groups like Arewa Consultative Forum (ACF), Afenifere and Ohanaeze Ndigbo have their secret reasons. Why can’t they do in their regions what Obafemi Awolowo and Nnamdi Azikwe did in those days? Let us all work towards the development of a united Nigeria that every Nigerian can be proud of.
Is it not germane we devolve power from the centre to reduce the amount of agitations, acrimony and claims of marginalisation, ethnicity, tendencies of nepotism and other nagging issues in the polity?
I agree with that. Let us do it the way they are doing it in Europe and in the United States of America. It is benefiting the centre and the federating units over there. We have not been able to practice what we saw in the so called developed world…
In the light of the myriads of the challenges we face in the area of security that is becoming intractable in the country, what does this tell you about the future of this country?
As far as I am concerned, to change the negative state of the nation, there must be a revolution. And when I say a revolution, I am not talking about using useless violence. I am talking about profound change that can bring about progress. This is the experience of other countries in the world: China, Russia, the United States of America and so on. We must bring about a system that is based on the dignity of human person; a system that provides for public interest first. It is rather unfortunate that what we have in Nigeria now is self-interest first and public interest second or even public interest uncertain.
Now, if you look at the history of the world and the relationship between, I think of the realistic solution to our problems is the socialist reconstruction of the country, starting with the little role of the state in the economy to ensure peace, equity, justice and the dignity of human person and progressive development of the whole country. We can bring this about through free, fair, transparent elections, leading to legitimate government. This can only be determined when the electorate are the ones deciding the winner of election, that is, if votes count in the country. If this is not put in place, we are inviting a revolution in the country. Revolution means a profound change to bring about the dignity of human person. And it must be added that people must be ready to sacrifice for the revolution. If other counties of the world had not made sacrifice through revolution, they won’t, today, become what they are in terms of development and progress. Take, for instance, China which had to go through revolution. So, our electoral process must change, in that the outcome of the election must reflect the true voice of the electorate, thereby leading to legitimate government at every level.
Are you saying you don’t have confidence in the country’s electoral system?
Mostly, the elections have not been reflecting the decision of the electorate. The recent elections in the country are pointers to this fact. As it is, the public do not have confidence in the electoral system. Take for instance, in Imo State, the candidate who came fourth in the election became the winner and was sworn-in as the governor of the state. How will that bring about confidence in the electoral system in the country? The election has been grossly criticised. Even, in the past, our elections have not been credible. From the Tafawa Balewa era up till the Muhammadu Buhari presidency now, the story is not different as our elections have been marred with rigging and violence. There was no free, fair, credible and transparent election in the country.
What about the election that brought you to power as the governor of Kaduna State in 1979? Are you saying that election was not credible at all?
No, it was credible. It was the people’s votes that brought me to power. My election was not manipulated. When I became the governor of Kaduna State in 1979, I was not a rich man. I didn’t even have a house of mine. I didn’t have anybody who could sponsor me. That time, it was the wish of the masses and I was a civil servant for 26 years. A lot of factors worked for my emergence as the governor of the state. We only took advantage of having been in the system. Even, Bola Ige in Oyo State was in a better position because he was a lawyer. He won the governorship seat of Oyo State because it was the people’s wish. And the credibility of Awolowo in the party he formed worked for some candidates then. Also, we can talk of Aminu Kano, Jim Nwobodo, Nnamdi Azikwe. It was their credibility that worked for them. The case is, however, different today. When you become a governor today, you have become the richest person in the state. No, it wasn’t like that during our days.
Your party, the Peoples Redemption Party (PRP), is one of the longest existing parties in Nigeria and just recently, the INEC deregistered 74 parties. What do you think the parties were not doing think right to be deregistered?
The Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) is very clear on the matter. It states that any party that does not win, at least, a state House of Assembly seat should be deregistered. All of those parties deregistered were not able to win a seat and that necessitated their de-registration. In the past, the PRP was not deregistered because we won a House of Representatives slot in Niger State, unexpectedly, and it was the only one we won in Nigeria. Now, the same thing still happens. We didn’t win any other state other than two seats in Bauchi State. And that was why we were not deregistered in the recent time.
Even, the parties that have not been deregistered are worse than the deregistered ones. A lot of issues come to play here. How do you think the All Progressives Congress (APC) will be deregistered when President Muhamadu Buhari is in power? How do you expect it? How do you expect the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) to be deregistered? PDP and APC are the worse in terms of compliance. There was a time that political parties were assessed based on compliance. No, this is not possible now. When we take the level of compliance into account, we discover that PDP and APC should be deregistered. But they are in full operation and that is to show that the system is faulty. That is another problem that Nigeria has.
Look at the electricity supply. We have privatised and despite that, the system is still worse. It is worrisome to note that I get electricity for only eight hours per day. So, what is the meaning of this privatisation that has not brought any desired result to the system? When we had National Electric Power Authority (NEPA), was our electricity as bad as we have now? I think what is responsible for the poor quality of service of Power Holding Company of Nigeria (PHCN) and those who own the electricity distribution company is that, what do they know about electricity? What do they know about honest privatisation? In Britain and other developed countries, by the time they sought privatisation, they had private entrepreneurs that were concerned about the society, not just concerned about themselves. Those people knew what happened. They knew about how Europeans killed themselves. Sad as it is, this privatisation will not work because we don’t have the discipline in our supposed privatisation. People who worked hard and earned their living are not enjoying public utilities. Here, today, you have always seen people who became thieves as a result of electricity.
The next presidential election will be in 2023 and people are already clamouring for who should become the next president. Some northerners are insisting that power must remain in the North for another four years after Buhari would have left office. What is your take on that?
Those who agitated in 2019 are also now saying that. But let us go for fairness, justice, equity and merit; let us go to the area where the best can come, where the parties can have reasons for uniting the country. It is something that requires a search. All the civil society organisations and all the intellectuals should be involved in searching for who becomes the next president of the country. And, of course, if we are searching for the best, we should know that the best is possible and available anywhere in the country. You can have the best from the North and the South and from any of the six geopolitical zones. Let me also say that we are good people in Nigeria. We should decide on the best and not where he or she will come from.
A lot of people believe that the North has dominated power for so many years and that the effect has not been reflected in the lifeof the people from. How true is this?
If we are talking about the North, we are not talking about capable and competent part of the region. Can you say Ibrahim Babangida, Olusegun Obasanjo and Goodluck Jonathan were good? None of them was good as we called them in Nigeria. Presidents have come from South-West, South-South and North-West, still the country is not good or better. So, I am saying that we have not had good time in the country. We are not going to donate; we are going to search the country, North and South, for the equivalent of the Great Zik of Africa, the late Dr Nnamdi Azikwe. And I will give you reasons for saying that. The like of the Great Zik of Africa is available everywhere in Nigeria; everywhere in the North and South- in the South-West, South-South, South-East, North-Central, North-East and North-West. But the best will never come unless we search for the best. So, let all Nigerians be involved in searching for the best from anywhere in Nigeria and they are there. Let us make it possible for them to emerge.
and then