A former governor of Jigawa State, ex-Foreign Affairs Minister, founding member of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) and presidential aspirant, Alhaji Sule Lamido, speaks to DARE ADEKANMBI at his village, Bamiana, in Birnin Kudu Local Government Area of the state on the internal politics of the PDP towards 2023 elections, the viability of a third force movement, zoning, the June 12 struggle as it affected NADECO, why APC may not retain the presidency, among others.
Five years after you left office as Jigawa governor, your name still resonates in the politics of the North and PDP. What is the secret?
It is God who has been keeping me afloat.
Are you implying that some folks are trying to drown you politically?
In life, no matter who you are, some people may not share your own view or philosophy and they may not come along with you on all issues. But it does not mean they are trying to drown you. They are only try to say their own point of view and see whether theirs will be more acceptable to yours. That is all. Nobody is trying to drown me.
In PDP still relevant in the politics of Jigawa State as it is today?
I have been in power as governor for eight and at the national level as a Foreign Affairs Minister and after serving as governor, I was flushed out. When you said how relevant, how do I answer you? Those who masterminded our defeat and voted in APC in Jigawa and Nigeria should be asked whether they are happy now, not me. I was there and I was flushed out. So, if APC is helping the people, then it means I am irrelevant. But APC is not helping them in Jigawa and Nigeria, then it means I am relevant.
But would you say Nigerians are happy under APC?
Let me put the question to you as a Nigerian too. Are you happy today? Do you feel safe? Has there been an increase in your earning capacity in the last seven years? Is Tribune increasing your salary every year? Look at the value of the naira and consider the value of the money you have in your pocket and compare it with what you could buy four or five years ago. Is it the same thing?
Between 1992 and 1998, the military put the country in crisis with division and so much hate, distrust across the country. PDP took over in 1999, stabilized and restored brotherhood as well as sisterhood in the country. The country was back to normal life and was making its own mark within the international community. And then the PDP was flushed because a party called APC came on board with its culture of blackmail, lies and propaganda and we in the PDP, which is a party that is more for the interest of Nigerians than selfish individual interest, had no objection to the choice made by Nigerians.
In 2023, there will be another round of national elections. So, if APC had been that wonderful economically, politically and with regard to capacity to unite Nigerians, secure the country and give citizens prosperity and peace, restore common bond and love, let Nigerians stick to APC. But if they think APC has failed miserably, and I believe APC has truly failed miserably and woefully, let Nigerians flush them out in 2023.
But even your party that you are indirectly making a case for has a number of internal issues threatening its cohesion and unity. At your recent meeting in Abuja, you said if PDP does not win back the presidency in 2023, the country might collapse…
What I am saying is this. Today, look at Nigeria, look at those who joined APC to defeat PDP and I say it often that PDP defeated PDP in the last election. It was not APC that defeated us. APC is a barren woman that cannot conceive. If you look at the result of the elections between 1999 and 2011, the votes garnered by the PDP were more than the votes scored by all other opposition parties put together. It was only in 2014 that APC realised there was no way they could defeat PDP. No matter how they came together or their alliance, that their party cannot conceive let alone deliver any baby. So, they invited PDP members. No disrespect here because I am just trying to recall history. Some leaders were very angry and aggrieved with Goodluck Jonathan. Former President Olusegun Obasanjo, former Vice-President Atiku Abubakar and a number of governors were very angry with Jonathan. So, in anger, they supported APC, pollinated the opposition party and gave it strength to conceive and they produced a baby PDP.
So, in 2023, with those who joined APC back in PDP, at least most of them and those who are APC members are looking for a better organised party with a bigger focus and broad-based and the Nigerian kind of platforms for all Nigerians. Our primary task in PDP now is to promote an open platform so that more people will come. We can’t begin to talk about election or contest now if the platform is very shaky and weak. Our concern should be how to get the PDP properly restored and stabilized. The organic history of PDP is there for us, a kind of Nigerian ownership by all Nigerians. By the time the party is properly focused and fully reconciled, then we can begin to talk about aspiration. After this, we will now sit down as a family and talk about how to give Nigerians the best presidential material from East or West, South or North. So, this debate about whether it should be a North or South thing does not make sense because it is divisive. Look at this, all the governors from the South, APC and PDP met to say it is the turn of the South. Does it make sense? If we divide the political boundary into a regional boundary, it means we are making Nigeria more divided. People in PDP from the North should find their real brothers and partners and not from APC in the South. In PDP, we need to come together as a Nigeria family iand ignore the noise about South or North. By the time we sit down as a family and are fully united, then we will look at what we should do. There is a country called Nigeria which we should serve because the country has been there for all of us. We were made presidents, governors, ministers and everything in the country. What do we do to pay Nigeria back for its kindness towards us and make others to also grow? This is the main thing.
So, for now, we should de-emphasise the talk about our own time. I am begging our leaders like Chief Ayo Adebanjo to, please, leave the parties alone. If they want to talk about political parties, let them join any of the parties whether under a Niger Delta platform or even Afenifere. They can’t be talking about power rotation as leaders of pressure groups. Let them join APC or PDP and when they do that, they can promote whatever agenda they have and there will be harmony and understanding. But when they do this from outside, they are dividing us. Let them give Nigeria a break so that others can grow and be like them. The younger generation deserves a future. They have the right to also grow and be president, governors and so on. Chief Edwin Clark was about 34 years when he started serving Nigeria.
It is about time we begin to de-emphasise location, ethnicity and tribe, even though Buhari’s government has brought back all kinds of cracks to the country. Today, because he is Fulani, I as a Fulani man have been vilified. We the Fulani are seen as a pariah tribe. The Fulani man today is being seen through the face of Buhari, but we are different. So, when we begin to transfer the action of an individual to a tribal or ethnic thing, then there is a problem. My primary focus is how to ensure the PDP is thoroughly united and made a very strong platform so that by the time we say Mr A should come and be our president, he will be because everybody will own him. To me, that Mr A can be a southerner or a northerner, so long as he is owned by the process through the family bond or friendship. We should not be talking about somebody not coming from a particular region or zone because when the person gets there, he is going to be the president of Nigeria and not of the region he comes from. In any case, whoever will be there will be from a zone or a tribe or a religion. So, why the emphasis?
Your party has been trying to make enough political capital from the outcome of the FCT Are council election. Are you happy your party did well?
Not happiness in that context really, but that Nigerians now have realised that the need to take their country back. Nigerians are showing that nobody can take them for granted or get them manipulated using their innocence and poverty. That is my happiness. We need a country called Nigeria and Nigerians who make the country great are now becoming awake and can now distinguish between a tissue of lies and see through smokescreen. This means we are safe. That is my happiness; the awareness from Nigerians that something has to happen for their own future to be secured. I am happy because Nigerians are winning.
Are you saying Nigerians are now determined to bring about a change of government in 2023 through the ballot?
Of course, there will be a change of guards in 2023 in Nigeria. There is no way APC can win elections in 2023. Who is the material in APC? The party is a contraption, a company of various shareholders such as [Senator Bola] Tinubu of the Action Congress of Nigeria (ACN), Buhari of Congress for Progressive Change (CPC) and the other segment of ANPP which can’t gather enough votes for the big company. These individuals are bonded by selfish and ephemeral interest. Buhari has been there now for almost eight years. It was his own personality that Tinubu and other cashed in on in 2015 because they never knew him. But now, Nigerians have seen who and what Buhari is. If you go back to the video clips of his campaign, you would feel embarrassed for him. When I watched the clips and how he was talking about fuel subsidy, economy, security and others, I just pitied him. He was simply embarrassing himself by what he was saying then. How could a former head of state, former petroleum minister talk about subsidy and call it a fraud, a former oil minister and head of state who did not understand the oil sector. He cut the image of someone who was genuinely ignorant in those campaign clips.
The fraud called subsidy is still here or are we back on the debate with the current fuel crisis in the country?
We are back in the era of everything bad about Nigeria, the economy, security and the social fabrics of the country. The damage done by APC through its culture of lies will take those that will be president after Buhari at least 20 years to fix and put the country back on the right track. There is no way the country can move forward if there is no trust. If you don’t trust me, how do we partner together, share a common vision? The way the country has been balkanized and destroyed in terms of that thing called trust will take years to restore. We will need a very solid government to work hard and disabuse the minds of the people towards those of us who are Fulani. After the trust is restored, then we begin to talk about the stability of the country and human capital development. That will mean I trust you and know when you are made president, you will be there for me.
People took your comment about PDP’s chances in 2023 to mean you are worried there are concerns that should be addressed internally?
That is absolutely true. In PDP, we must remove suspicion and stop thinking Mr A or Mr B is doing something against me or undermining my interest. The first thing should be PDP interest and therefore, nobody should see my own action or that of my group or any other group as a threat to their interest. These groupings are designed to further enhance unity and reconciliation.
During our meeting as ex-governors with the national chairman, Iyorchia Ayu, I told him the party called PDP has a very strong heritage under the canopy of the presidency. Now, the roof is off and we are therefore being weather beaten. But we are still losing our focus. Instead of seeking common shelter, looking at how to rebuild the roof for us to be safe, everybody is trying to create small canopies to cover themselves. This will not help us. We need to cover the bigger canopy for us to be under it. This is why some people who should not even speak are speaking, I mean this Committee of 22 called by Nduka [Obaigbena] has been speaking. How on earth will people who have been part of Nigerian process in terms of the economy will be saying the economy will be ruined. Who ruined the economy? They say both PDP and APC have failed and are looking for a third force. How? The people who got the best out of the two parties are talking about their own group. They are now trying to create their own kind of group because there is division. Whatever they are today came from either PDP or APC which they are now vilifying. When they form their own group, where are they going to drop their [presidential] candidate in the political arena?
So, you don’t see a third force displacing either APC or PDP in 2023?
A third force that will displace PDP or APC? Come on, wake up! How? It is either you are in PDP or APC. If you say a third force, what do you tell PDP or APC? You will say they have failed?
People don’t see any difference between your party and APC, they are six and half a dozen…
Even those making such claims are either PDP or APC at a particular time. So, it means they are the actual failure. All na wayo. How could they form that kind of group? Now that APC is coming to an end, they want to make sure they maintain their economic interest and are now saying both parties have failed, as the parties have given them everything they need. The claim PDP and APC are six and half a dozen is just for entertainment purpose. PDP was formed in 1998. How old were the people that are talking now then? Anybody who is 30 now was only five years in 1998. These are the people who formed the majority of Nigerians now. So, their thinking about national issues is based on how they came to understand Nigeria under a democracy, a country fully restored. But those were fairly old in 1999 knew what Nigeria was and what they went through before PDP came in 1999 and restored the country. Those who are saying there is no difference are those who collected money to vote for APC.
But Senator Rabiu Kwankwaso, a big votes-puller in Kano State, is part of a third force…
I don’t want to talk about Kwankwaso. From 2007 to date, PDP has been abandoned by so many people that it invented, so to speak. They thought the party would die. Has it died? In APC, for instance, when you talk about the three legacy parties, you can talk about Tinubu and ACN. When you remove Tinubu, APC is dead. In CPC, remove Buhari and see the death of APC. APC is a party driven by personalities, not PDP, which is very organic and anchored on Nigeria’s future. So, PDP is a Nigerian thing. We can’t, therefore, say because certain individuals are not in the party, the PDP will die. When they left PDP in 2014, did the party die? It did not die and they came back. If the party were to be dead, where would they come back to? If Tinubu takes his own faction of the APC out of the party, APC will die. Unlike APC, Nigerians need PDP for the country to forge ahead and truly be a leader of the Black race. The two parties are different, even at formation.
Are you worried about a brewing cold war between Governor Nyesom Wike of Rivers State (perhaps representing the governors) and PDP national chairman, Dr Ayu? Wike was not happy when you and others went to see former President Olusegun Obasanjo who told you he is no longer a partisan leader but a statesman…
But Chief Obasanjo said PDP is in his blood. So, what are you talking about?
He can’t join your party again…
But then the blood is still there. What I am saying is this. Baba is a diplomat and also Nigeria’s symbol. As a former head of state and civilian president, he carries the symbol with him. Therefore, there are times he can’t be unduly partisan. When he says he will not go and campaign, he is right. When he says he won’t come to our meeting, he is also right. The position he is holding now overrides that of any party. But then he said, ‘PDP is in my blood, Sule,’ which means he is PDP through and through. This means when it comes to guidance, ideas and direction for us, he will always be there.
You visit angered Wike and co and this is increasing the tension in the party…
I like Wike. I know him very well. He is very hardworking and very loquacious. But then PDP is not there to appease Wike. PDP was not formed to appease or please anybody. That is a fact. The party was formed to appease and serve Nigeria and work for Nigerians. PDP will be around for many more years. But those of us who belong to the party or have had anything to do with it will not be around maybe in the next 50 years. So, when you collect the entire thing into somebody not being happy, you are simply diminishing what is called PDP. What we want is for Nigerians to believe in PDP, trust us, join the party and make it stronger and credible. If we consider Wike credible, of course, we will produce him.
But then he will be our own kind, our own raw material which we will process into a finished product. Anybody who wins PDP’s presidential ticket must be owned by PDP. There is no way we will be talking about Nigeria and some people will say don’t go to Mr A or Mr B. It does not make sense.
You have been governor and so you do know that governors wield enormous power. The PDP governors have become so powerful that they had their way during the convention and are firmly in charge of the party now.
There is a difference between the office and the personality. The office confers authority and legitimacy on a person. It confers both economic and political power in the person too. But this should not be confused with the personalities of the occupiers of the office. When people come into office, they own the power in the office and if they are not fit, they will have to grow and fit the level of the power in their office.
As a former governor, I know those who are governors now will be former governors. It is not about the party beginning and ending with my own political interest. If you are a governor, the party will expect you to make certain contributions. Our governors are our ornamentation, our earring, gold, wristwatch and we always use them to decorate our party. But it does not mean that because they are governors, they are bigger than the party. There is no son that is bigger than his own father. So, former and serving governors are all creations of PDP and even Obasanjo was created by PDP.
So, I don’t see any conflict or any cause for worry in terms of efforts being to ensure the PDP becomes bigger, having grown through crisis. When those who left see that a space has been opened for all, they will come back. I don’t think Wike told the national chairman that he is worried that we went to Obasanjo.
APC has shown it is picking a southern presidential candidate, but PDP is still playing hide and seek, saying its ticket is open to all…
There is no hide and seek in PDP. The issue of zoning was PDP’s invention. Those who formed the PDP have great vision and were real thinkers. After June 12, they saw that something was wrong with Nigeria. They came together to see what could be done to restore trust in the country. Apparently, the South-West part was feeling short-changed because somebody from there won and election that was annulled. So, the annulment was seen as a conspiracy against the South-West. Somehow, people who were not even there on June 11, began to appropriate the clamour for June 12. [MKO] Abiola’s election was a national accomplishment. By his election, he was able to unite Nigeria. Abiola’s victory was the creation of other parts of the country and not South-West.
Abiola won in Ogun and South-West generally…
There had been SDP in Ogun State before Abiola. When he joined SDP, there had been councillor, chairman and a governor, Chief Segun Osoba, in his state. Abiola only went to the labour room as a presidential candidate and met the baby already delivered for him there. He had no idea how SDP was formed or how SDP won election in Ogun State. It was the wisdom of many leaders across the country that Abiola should be fielded as the presidential candidate, because at that time, anyone who could have been considered as an alternative had been disqualified. In SDP, Chief Olu Falae, Alhaji Abubakar Rimi and in NRC, Shinkafi and others too had been disqualified. There was nobody standing. The institutions had been standing before Abiola came. NADECO only appropriated the June 12 struggle. It had no input in it. Mention to me one NADECO person that was there on June 11 for MKO. In fact, NADECO chiefs hated Abiola because of what he did to Chief Obafemi Awolowo during NPN days. They were happy when Abiola’s victory was annulled, but used the carcass of the annulment as anchor for NADECO struggle. I mean no disrespect. I am just recalling history. NADECO only promoted the June 12 struggle as its own. It had no input in the events of June 12.
If APC picks a Southerner and the PDP goes for a Northerner as presidential candidates, what do you see happening?
APC is going by the zoning arrangement which PDP adopted to address the problem of 1992. The division and the tension in the country today were caused by the failure of Buhari and his government and party, APC. In 2014, was there an issue of North versus South? No. APC was looking for somebody and they saw Buhari who was desperate to be president and then saw APC as a platform. So, they used themselves mutually. Nobody was there for Nigeria. They did everything because of personal interest which is why Nigeria is the biggest loser now. APC and Buhari have injured Nigeria. Buhari can run a government. The foul mood across the country is a creation of APC and Buhari. So, APC may begin to go about zoning because they created the problems we have in the country now.
But in PDP, we are thoroughly healed. We are concerned with bringing a candidate that is very credible and strong. PDP is going for competence above zoning and anybody, either from the South of the North, can be our candidate. Somebody we think will be there for all Nigerians. We are currently building a strong platform first. I am talking for the PDP and not for the North.
But there is not much time. The elections are knocking on the doors…
Election is for a purpose and the purpose is to give Nigeria an instrument of leadership for good governance and peace and prosperity of the country. If you are only looking at the date, it is towards what purpose? If we are able to use the next two or three months to fully restore the PDP, we should do so. After that, we will choose from Atiku, Wike, Tambuwal and others and ask how do we put [him across]? APC is only appeasing a zone, which we did in 1999. But the zone [South-West], declined what we gave them [Obasanjo]. But when he became president, people from the zone started owing him.
If you think Buhari is the problem, he has said he is already looking forward to being called a former president, a kind of preparing for life outside office…
Must he even say so? He probably said that to comfort himself and also commiserate with himself in what they call self-commiseration. Of course, he must go. Let him stay there if he wants.
You surely will have some positive things to say about Buhari’s government so far…
Unlike APC and Buhari who see no good in anything about the PDP, they kept saying the PDP did nothing for 16 years that it was in charge of the central government, I have a fairer mind. Even in flying out of the country frequently in Europe and the West, going to functions are all parts of his achievements. They are achievements for Buhari. There are things he also did as president that we must give him credit for. But what I am saying is that he has not done enough in relation to what he campaigned about when he was running for office. The level of promises made did not really match his poor performance. The expectations of Nigerians against the promises made by APC in 2014 were very high. Buhari was seen as the messiah with a magic wand. Seven and a half years after, he has not measured.
Is PDP going to or is it already talking to those in the third force?
Who are those in the third force?
Pat Utomi, Jega, Kwankwaso and many others…
In politics sometimes, it is the collectivity which makes the real impact and normally guides the leadership. In 1999 when PDP was trying to field a presidential candidate and they gave the aspirants time to speak. The man who made the best speech on that day was Philip Asiodu and was highly qualified and in terms of speeches, he made the best speech. But that was not enough and he did not win the primary.
You see, these technocrats are excellent and have good brains. But you cannot hold one end of the stick. You have to hold both ends. So, these people are good only when a government is formed and are brought on board to use their expertise to solve problems. But in most cases, the political clout is not there for them. If they want to controvert me, let them go and float a political party. Sometimes, a person may be excellent, but there is also the political dimension which has to blend into it and give it the required energy. The third force is good and its promoters are very brilliant. I like Utomi and I know him very well. But these professionals are not electable. Those in Club 22 and are also talking now will follow any government that wins power in 2023. They are talking about [Godwin] Emefiele, the CBN governor; those moneybags who are mainly in Lagos, leave them. They are in PDP and APC. They know they must harvest. But now, they apparently fear their own shadow so they are talking to be relevant again. But the time a new government comes in 2023, they will be there too.
People talk about the ‘those who own Nigeria,’ the real power brokers who command respect across parties in the country. Do they really exist or is it just a myth? They are said to have sent scouts out to look for the best candidate across the country for 2023 presidential election. Even in Lagos recently, APC, PDP governors as well as Aliko Dangote and Femi Otedola were there too in respect of 2023…
It is not to rule or govern Nigeria. I want to be in the vanguard of leading Nigeria, using all available talents for the country. I don’t rule. The word ‘rule’ is too strong, caustic and embodies corrosive power. We also talk of the environment which is why I am saying the party should be fully reconciled. When the election process comes, we know who to put. If we don’t get properly organised and things are left to go haywire, we will go through the same process of human trade fair. Party conventions in Nigeria have become human trade fairs. The delegates are the articles for merchandising and aspirants buy the number they want. But if we build a very strong political party that is well organised and share values that are benchmark for good conduct, it means we are facing the country with a better preparations. But when the whole thing is fragmented, each person is making its own way, then it means we are simply waiting to go to the convention and with the merchandise available for sale, we go round the sheds or the tents made for each state, then buy whatever you want. So, I want us to do away with this human trade fair of convention. Let’s go through the real process of selecting the right person for Nigeria.
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“It is gladdening that only six months after that memorable event, the Minister of Interior is back in Enugu to perform another significant and symbolic ceremony. This time, the Minister accompanied by the Acting Comptroller General of Immigration, is in the Coal City to unveil the enhanced E-Passport and Commission the Passport Production Centre for the South East situated in Enugu within this Complex.”
Speaking also, the Acting Comptroller General enthused that the people of the South East can now rejoice, pointing out that it was not that his Service oblivious of the suffering of the people but that time and resources had not permitted earlier action.
He commended Gov Ugwuanyi for his support and assistance to the State Command that had culminated in the realization of the project.
Responding, Aregbesola showered encomium on Ugwuanyi who he described as his good friend and one who has been of immense assistance to the Immigration Service in Enugu state.
The minister said not only does South East have a passport production centre within reach but also that the people now have access to an array of choices of the enhanced E-Passport that will aid their globe-trotting disposition.
and then