External forces have a hand in banditry in the North —Gemade

One time national chairman of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), Senator Barnabas Gemade, in this interview with journalists, gave reasons why he could no longer join PDP, spoke on other national issues. JOHNSON BABAJIDE brings excerpts from the interview.

MAY we know why you have decided to move to the All Progressives Congress (APC), considering your profile as the  first elected national chairman of the PDP. You left PDP to APC in 2015, then in 2019, you went to SDP. Now, you have returned to APC. Some rumored that your movement is to pair with Senator Bola Tinubu for 2023 presidential election and others say you want to contest for the Benue State governorship seat.

Thank you very much for your pregnant and double barrel question. Politics is a dynamic game as you know. And in Nigeria, because of the numerous military interventions, no politician can ever say that he is a politician of one political party throughout his political life. If you did not move from one party to the other, the military will abrogate the one you have and so you will join another one or you form another one. And that is what makes politics in Nigeria very dynamic very much against established democracies like the United States, Britain, India and so on, where people belong to one political party generation upon generation. Apart from that, in Nigeria, the dynamics of politics is such that there are no issues that keep you permanently in one party because situations keep changing.

You went ahead and advanced certain reasons for my movement which you said some people are saying. Well, I do not work on insinuations. I work on facts. All my life, I’m a factual man. So, I work on facts. The fact is that you move in politics based on the interests that present themselves. Yes, those things that you said are also interests but those are not the primary issues that govern someone’s interest. When I left the PDP in 2015, precisely 2014, it was because the party had put a framework in ground to stop me from getting my second term as senator representing my senatorial zone. And I said well, if you have arsenals flying to shoot you down and you foolishly decide to stay there to be shot, then you are not a clever person. That’s why I left to APC. And I left in good time enough to win my election. And as you know, the incumbent governor of the state at that time contested against me and lost the election. In 2019, similar arsenals were put on line to stop me from seeking my election back into the Senate and I, in a similar manner, decided to change camp.

You know that the practice here in Benue since 1999 was such that the other two zones were being represented almost permanently by single candidates. In Zone C, David Mark had been there five times. In Zone B, Senator George Akume was seeking his fourth term because he had been there three terms. And so, for me, seeking my third term in Zone A was a very mundane issue that was not supposed to attract any form of opposition. But people chose to say it’s their turn and all of that. And then, when I saw that the climate in the APC was not conducive to guarantee that there would be fair contest in my seeking nomination, I decided to leave. Unfortunately, I left too late to join the Social Democratic Party (SDP) that was not a properly organised party and we could not prosecute the election properly. Now, since after that, the situation in our state has presented itself in a manner which everybody is concerned. It is because of this reason that I felt that SDP is not a political party I can operate in to cause any effect in this state about good leadership, good governance, good representation or even good politicking. So, I decided that I should go back to the party that I joined in 2015 and we made a huge success. That is why I’m back in APC.

Back to the build up to 1999 elections, you were a kingmaker who helped George Akume to become governor.  Today, you have moved to APC where your erstwhile political son is the leader of the party. Don’t you think there will be conflict between both of you?

Well, you are asking a question that is very controversial. The thing is that when you twist my answer you will now have interpreted all you said and now it will be taken that I’m the one who said those things you said.  All I can tell you is that as far as I know, Senator George Akume is a leader of APC in Benue State and I don’t think my joining any party has any issue with any person who is a leader of that party. I’m not joining the party as leader of the party, but as a member of the party. So, I do not see my presence in that party in conflict with anybody.

You are yet to say anything if truly you want to contest for governorship in 2023 because some people are looking at your age.  Do you think if you come out in 2023 you will be the candidate to beat?

Well, you make it very difficult for me by asking me to comment on rumour. But I’m not given to take rumour very seriously or worry about such. Whether I’m going to contest election or not is dependent entirely on the way I think and the way I feel. Age is a relative matter to start with. At 70, I do not think that a man at 70 is too old to do anything.

There are many people who are far younger in politics in Nigeria and in Benue and there are many people who are far older in politics in Nigeria and in Benue. So, there’s no issue about age versus any desire that I have or might eventually have if I do have to stand for an election. These issues are not the factors that are important in politics. What is important in politics is the capability and capacity of the individuals; what they are known for and what they can do.

Recently, people are advocating that the National Assembly should peg the age of contestants to 60. So, if such a thing happens, what will be your reaction?

I don’t know about what you have said because if they peg the age of contestants at 60, then about two thirds of them will have to leave the Senate because more than two thirds of them are over 60. So, I can’t see how some people will make a law that catches up with all of them.

How do you see the future of APC in Benue and even in Nigeria?

I can only say it’s very bright. You know since 1999, I have always functioned in parties that won elections. I know when a party is likely to win an election and I know that APC will win the elections in 2023.

For sure, I know but don’t ask me how do I know? Look at the history to know; from 1999 to 2011, I was all in the PDP and we won these elections all along. In 2015, I was in APC and we won that election even in the state. In 2019, I was neither in PDP nor APC. I told you before that I joined the SDP which was a small kind of unorganised party and it was just a few weeks to the elections. So, I can literally say that, apart from my election as senatorial candidate, I did not really take full participation in the election in the state to say which party will win because even the SDP as small as it was, it didn’t even have a governorship candidate until the eve of the election as it kept moving from one person to the other and the people didn’t really know who to vote for. So, I didn’t really have a chance to participate in that election at the level of governorship. But we did not also have a presidential candidate as it was also going back and forth. And at the end, the party itself dismissed both candidates and when I heard that we should go and vote for the incumbent president, that was what we did and as far as I was concerned. The over 30,000 votes which I got in my local government were also what the president got in my local government. I had told them I had no presidential candidate, so they should vote for me and the incumbent president and that was what others did in their respective areas and at the end of it, President Buhari won the election, but the governorship went to PDP. Most of the House of Representatives and Assembly slot were won by the PDP. It means that there were many people elsewhere who were voting for the president and were not members of his party. So, added to members of his party in various councils, he carried the day in Benue

Are you not worried about the spate of insecurity in the country under the APC-led government?

Insurgency is not a federally controlled event. Insurgency is a series of events in different locations in the country and those who have created bandits are not federal officers or politicians associated with the Federal Government. These are individuals in various corners of this country that are pushing interests which are common to them in those localities.  Check in Kaduna and you would see that it’s only one group is fighting and killing people in southern Kaduna people. The state government there is APC. In Zamfara State, there is a group that is killing and making banditry all the time in Zamfara and the government there is PDP.

You go to NorthEast, the bandits there in three states of Adamawa, Borno and Yobe started bombarding those areas all along when the Federal Government was PDP and they continued when the Federal Government became APC. The states are ruled by different parties. So, to ask if I am worried that there is so much banditry under APC is not an appropriate way to look at it.

When I was a member of the Senate under APC, I raised more motions on insurgency in the country than any other senator. It is on record because I raised personally seven different motions and I joined about 15 other people raising issues in their own localities about banditry. So, we should be worried about that as a country and think about what should be done to solve this problem. If anybody should tell me that this problem is a political party problem, I will tell you that that is not true. How do we know the man who is pursuing Boko Haram in Borno State or the group that is pursuing Boko Haram in the North-East? How do you know which political party they belong? The bandits in Zamfara State, how do you know the political parties they belong to? Those that are doing killing in southern Taraba, how do we know which political parties they belong because the government in Taraba is a PDP government. And in Nasarawa State, they are killing both in southern and western Nasarawa state, the state government there is APC. So, we need to be very much concerned.

That’s why I tend to believe this story that there are external forces involved in this issue of bandits coming into this country because nobody is ready to sit-down and isolate the issue and know exactly what the reason for this fight is. Some people said it is a political matter, others said it is a religious matter, other call it an economic matter.

So, what is it really that is causing this banditry? Do you think that the government of the day has done enough to curtail it?

Every governor of each state is the chief security officer of the state. In Benue, for instance, the governor is the chief security officer and you know he has made a law on open grazing because they think open grazing was the main thing that was causing the fight here and to me, that law has helped to some extent. So, every state has got a right to do similar thing in their areas. I’m sure when you put that question in that form, I will say no, government has not done enough, they should do more.

There is popular view that President Buhari should do away with the service chief because they are now bereft of ideas which account for the incessant attacks and killings across the country. What is your take on that?

I am not in the military so I do not hold my opinion on military government, but those who are outside the military like myself have witnessed in the past when military commanders have tenures and when that tenure elapsed they removed them and put new ones. From what I hear from people, they said that the tenure of these people is over and they should leave. It is not on the basis of whether they are qualified or not, or suitable or not. I am not in the military.

What is your opinion on the clamour for power to rotate to the South in 2023?

We were never able to put issue of rotation in the constitution. I attended constitutional conference twice. We wrote the constitution that is operation now in 1995 constitutional conference which was promulgated in 1999. We could not put that in the constitution. It is left in the constitution of the political parties. So, it is not possible for you to say, and I’m not an ordinary person to begin to give public opinion as if am a farmer or I’m a businessman. I’m a member of a political party. I work with what the party I belong.

An elder statesman like you has advocated competence in place of zoning, do you agree with what Mamman Daura said?

Daura is not a politician. He has said that himself, that he’s not a politician. He is giving advice to politicians and advice is not a command. I cannot go and be dwelling on the advice that Mamman Daura is giving to politicians. Those who like it will take it and those who don’t like it will not take it.

Let’s look at the anti-corruption fight by this government, do you think it is doing enough?

The current government has tried tremendously, and I want that word to be used. They have tried tremendously. But the issue is, corruption has fought back with strong forces that they are influencing the agencies which we created in 1999 as a party. You know I  was national chairman when we created ICPC, EFCC, and then being a member of the kitchen caucus of the government at that time you know that I know exactly what we were planning for this nation at that time. Some meetings used to be less than ten people and I would be a member.

Those organisations were made to be vibrant, but they were not vibrant because they are being influenced from outside. So, the effort is dampening the effort of government in fighting corruption from external forces has been overwhelming. Therefore, the result is not what we expected. We expected more, that the two agencies will do more work and be more decisive in what they do.The judiciary should be more decisive. Cases are staying in court for upward of ten years, fifteen years, that’s not the way to fight corruption.

One of the reasons for military intervention in politics has always been corruption and nepotism. With the uninterrupted democratic government,  do you think that the democratic experience has helped the country and is capable of taking it out of the woods?

It’s relative. If you compare what we have not with the republic before the military took over and during the military, they are far better than at that time. Some things were also better in the military than they are now. The level of corruption in Nigeria during civilian administrations and the sheer number of people who are living on government is high that you don’t have as much resources to use on physical development. During Ibrahim Babangida administration when I was minister, those were the era major projects like third mainland bridge was built, highways like Abuja, Kaduna, Kano were  built and so many different things that were built because government was small and the number of people involved. Even the cabinet had 28 members. Today, local government council is made up of nearly the functions of the Federal Government. So, there are too many people hanging on public funds that are not enough to use. Corruption is again dwindling even what is available in ensuring that development is enhanced, for which reason, it’s plus and minus. Some things are better, some things are worse off.

If that is the case, do you still support the presidential form of democracy or parliamentary?

I have always been an advocate of parliamentary system which does not employ as many people as are being employed today. Which parliamentary system will warrant a governor to have 900 special advisers, special assistants? What will they do for you, because half of the time you are sitting in parliament with your colleagues, when will you have time to sit with such kind of people?

But now when a governor is an executive, some of them, once a week, once a month or once a year and run the government by sending Special Advisers around to do things.

Parliamentary system would have been a lot better, but Nigerians don’t like parliamentary system because it limits the number of people exposed to government in handling physical resources of government. Majority of Nigerians want to live on government rather than live on the economy of the country.

There are two dominant political parties, PDP and APC, despite our multiparty system, but some Nigerians are advocating a two-party system. What’s your take on that?

No, you don’t limit democracy, but you control it. Limitless democracy is chaotic, but regimentary democracy is also not acceptable. So, you peg certain rules which are not draconian rules, they are democratic in nature. Like you said, if your political party is not able to show its presence in this country up to two-thirds of the states of the federation, it should not participate in national election. And if your party cannot make a show in two-thirds of local governments, you will not participate in the state elections. So, will you go and accuse anybody that they have been wicked to you? Your party did not win, so you have to start the election from the bottom. Go and contest for councilor, if you like, make the ballot 200 people, everybody will go to his ward, they will go and vote for councilor, if they like let them do lineup.

What is your take on power rotation to Benue South in 2023?

I was one of those who drafted the PDP constitution in 1998, and we put it to use in 1999, we always stated that even though rotation is not specified, zoning is specified in the party’s constitution and once you specify zoning it means you can rotate things around. You don’t need to ask me whether I believe in zoning or rotation. I am an ardent believer.

Will you support an Idoma candidate in 2023?

If you want to know about me on issues of zoning and rotation, go and ask David Mark, because I brought him into PDP. He said it himself many occasions and each time we meet to decide on candidate on elections, ask him what I used to do.

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