The earlier we sit down to design the trajectory of development, the better —Hon. Ossai

Ossai Nicholas Ossai, representing Ndokwa/Ukwani federal constituency in Delta State, is the chairman, House Committee on Treaty, Protocol and Agreement. He speaks to KEHINDE AKINTOLA on various issues, including devolution of powers, convocation of Sovereign National Conference, internal democracy, among other issues. Excerpts:

 

How would you describe Nigeria’s journey as a nation in the last 60 years?

First, if you are looking at the political angle, you will find out that we failed woefully in terms of democractisation and electioneering and issues of how we govern ourselves as a people who want to build a nation. I think we have not fared well at all. Since 1999, we have not been able to restructure this country and we are passing through the peripheries, without total restructuring of this country and setting the foundation right, thinking that development will come out. We are just moving round the circle. We talked about electoral laws, but it has taken us almost how many years since 1999 to be able to rejig our electoral process which has not been too good. In 2015, we thought that we could have taken it to some level but we were not able to do that. Since 1999, we have also not been able to devolve power to the federating units, which are the states. Government can do business. I am not in the school of thought of some who say government cannot do business. Government can do business facing social sector and be able to address the concerns of Nigerians. Since 1999, we could not set up new refineries; even the old ones, we could not manage and that has plunged the Nigerian society into the level we are today by the raising of fuel price and justifying it on the pretext that we are deregulating and that  prices of petroleum in the country are the lowest in the sub-region. That is not true. I disagree completely. Some of us came into government thinking that we could change the situation. But over the years now, we could not change the situation. We have not been able to lay a very solid foundation for our children and we are 60 years old already. It is unfortunate that we are not going in the direction of good governance. We pretend to show that we are doing good governance but we are not. I believe there is the need for us as a nation to talk to ourselves under a sovereign national conference, irrespective of whether the National Assembly is legislating or has power to legislate or not. We need a very solid sovereign national conference and if some of us are elected into that sovereign national conference, so be it. We will go and represent our people so that certain powers can also be streamlined since we have not been able to do that as a legislature since 1999.

 

Do you see the type of political leadership that we have as having that capacity to actually achieve this?

It depends of what you call political leadership. All it takes is that some of us can vote for the sovereign national conference and take some of our rights out and also go to our constituents to represent them effectively in the sovereign national conference where the foundation of Nigeria can be laid since the legislative arm, since 1999, has not been able to change the situation. You saw when we voted for constitutional amendment last time, they [some entrenched interests] voted against devolution of powers. So, how do you now change it? How will the country move forward? The country can only move forward when we sit down and say this is how we can coexist. You must be able to build a foundation to be able to build a strong electoral system that will bring about high-level democratisation that will usher in a well-cultured democracy into the mainstream. You can see our economy today which is in a very bad shape. States should take responsibility to generate revenue, construct good roads and build very strong infrastructure.  We are saying the power of the Federal Government is too much, and you want to even build more power to the Federal Government, then, who are you serving? So I believe that we should be up and doing and at our age, we should be able to say that we are in the age of wisdom and we should be able to build our country for the future of our children

 

We have different layers of political actors at the state and federal levels. We have seen some of you being proactive, advocating devolution of powers. But why is the Executive not supporting the agitation?

Government is government; it is not really about the Executive. The National Assembly can also proactively do the needful and override Mr. President. Have we done that? No. let us not shift blame to the executive. All of us in this government are involved, whether in judiciary, legislature or the executive and the earlier we sit down to be able to redesign this country on the trajectory of development, the better. Every law we are initiating seems not to work because the foundation of the country is not solid. You cannot build something on nothing. When the foundation is weak, no matter how legislative competent you are, you will not be able to address the issue. America is moving forward today because they designed how they can coexist. And that became an independent constitution and it has already sustained them up till date. The legislature knows its limits and cannot alter those articles in the constitution that guarantee the independence of the federating units. But in our own case, though we have all the power and legitimacy, we cannot address the issue.

 

Why is it so cumbersome?

That is because the foundation is weak; everybody is represented through ethnic consideration. You are coming from ethnic groups but you don’t want to change things even when those things you are going to change will put the country in the right direction. So, our problems are big. We are just pretending. The problem of this country is big and the earlier an Hausa or Urhobo man knows he can become anything anywhere by speaking Hausa and Urhobo languages at the same time, the better for us. Today, you can live anywhere in America. When you stay in a place for six months, you become the citizen of that state. So, if they can do that in America, why can’t we replicate the same in Nigeria? Why are we taking religion as the major issue when we know it is not major? Can’t you sit down in your house and worship God?

 

There was a call by an interest group recently that the National Assembly must have courage, at least for once, to suspend the constitution that we run at present. What’s your take on this?

It is the same thing we are saying. When you say suspend the constitution, it means summoning a sovereign national conference and in any sovereign national conference, the document they bring out becomes authentic and enforceable, even if they say part-time legislature, it becomes enforceable. If they say it is a parliamentary system of government, it becomes enforceable. That means the cabinet, ministers, all will be dissolved and legislators can be appointed ministers and you have the prime minister. So, let us see or get that mandate to regulate all laws that concern our country through the sovereign national conference so that these killings can stop.

 

Do you think that will address the issue of marginalisation?

It will because the minority groups would all have been factored into the equation.  In fact at the end of the day, in the next 50 years, you will not even know whether you are in the minority or majority group. Are you talking about the Indian origin of America? Do they really remember those minorities? Everybody is an American. The US constitution is a well-defined document that defines everybody. Everybody is the same. If you intend to go and learn the old Indian language, you can go and learn without disturbing anybody. After all, my children speak Hausa today. It is part of their course in the school and they learn it. Some learn Igbo and Yoruba. In fact in my house, they have learnt different languages. We should develop a Nigeria of the future that we are proud of. So that in our old age, we look at the top and smile and say we have done well.

But right now, we have not done well. I have not done well. When I was coming to the National Assembly, I came with big hope that I could change situations and up till now, I have not been able to change anything, even though you may say I have proposed a lot of bills, but I have not been able to change the things that can move the country forward. So I how can I be proud as a legislator?

 

Looking at the way we do our budgeting, can we say we get value for all these that we do as a nation?

The issue is that when you talk of budget, do you even have the money existing before the budget? Do you have the fund when you are budgeting? It is a projection. You project for revenue and for what you have spent in expenditure and inside your projection you have also factored how you will borrow money because you know your revenue projection will not be enough. So you need money for service. But even when we borrow, are we borrowing rightly? Those borrowings, do they bring about multiplying effects in the past six years? Our roads are bad. We decentralise issues of breaking the jinx in NEPA to bring in Discos. Have Discos been able to invest in the energy sector? No. Are we moving forward or backwards? During COVID-19, we are increasing tariff. You didn’t even give them palliatives. You are bringing high tariff immediately you unlock the lockdown! Tax is an obligation to the nation, but at a period of time, you must be able to see your citizens and say let us help and let is make them smile that they voted in our government.

 

What’s your assessment of various developmental plans initiated by successive administrations?

I think Nigeria needs solid developmental plans. You can only be above developmental plan where you have enough revenue which you can use to budget and provide for budget surplus. Even if you want to borrow small money, that loan can become a deficit, when between 33 or 35 to 60 per cent of the money you generate goes into debt servicing. Is that the kind of country you want to run? I am not happy that I can go to the market, buy things and eat and say I am a legislator, but what of the common man? Can he go to the same market you go and buy something of even 5,000 naira and enjoy a meal with his children? Those are the issues.

 

You appear to be sympathetic to the plight of most Nigerians.

It is not just about sympathy. I have failed to protect them because I am among the 360 legislators whose future will be categorised among participants in this administration. Whether the government adds value or not or not to their lives, they will say I am part of it.

 

So, what should National Assembly do differently?

National Assembly can rejig the constitution even without going to sovereign national conference. It is a determination. If the  leadership of the two chambers agree that we are going to set up state police, we are going to devolve power to states to generate their revenue and pay tax to the Federal Government, if they are able to do that, Nigeria will be on the path to becoming a success story. But as of now, we are not.

 

But is it the question of political will?

It is not a question of political will. We received our mandate from the people; we should do the right thing. The fact that we received our mandate from the people and we are saying that the constitution is not right, then we should change the constitution. We should reduce some of the powers of the Federal Government and cede them to the states, so that states can generate revenue and be competitive enough.

 

The concern of Nigerians is that even the structure of the National Assembly is faulty and needs to be reviewed to ensure equal representation of the people…

It is not faulty, because we were elected to represent the interest of the people. The 109 senators represent the 109 senatorial zones. The 360 House members represent every state’s federal constituency. We can meet as a people who govern this country, not only the executive. We are the first arm of government and we should be able to meet and say look, our country is not moving. In the 60s when the British government handed over power to us, we were operating under regionalism where certain level of powers resided with the regions. Why can’t we retain that power for the states to operate like regions as they were operating now that we have 36 states? So, why can’t states operate the same way and generate their own revenue and pay taxes to the Federal Government? States will go and negotiate with foreign investors and put their states on the right path. If states are doing well, do you need Abuja again? So the ball is in the court of the legislators to define the way forward and if the executive tries to remove the legislator, they should impeach that executive. But then do we have the will power?

 

That is the question because if you look at the northerners, they have an overwhelming number…

Don’t call them northerners;  they are Nigerians. There is nothing like northerners, southerners. We are all the same. I went to Sokoto and I sat down in Sokoto Street and was drinking mai-sai tea. I enjoyed the bread and fried eggs the mallam did. The tea had some aroma that I couldn’t enjoy in my place. The most important thing is that the people live a simple life. Let’s leave representation, when powers are devolved to states, they will begin to develop on their own. Representation will not be remembered. If we begin to generate revenue (local governments are domiciled in the states) if you want to create 100 local governments, you create them for yourself, because revenues are domiciled in the states. Representation or number is not an issue. True fiscal federalism is the end point that brings competitiveness. You say you are a good Muslim or Christian and people are dying.  You were given a contract to do hospital, but you couldn’t do it and you say you are a child of God. You are not. You just use the religion to cover your face.

 

Let us look at political party evolution.

The party has not evolved effectively because internal democracy remains the problem of parties.  There is no democratic culture in place. That is the truth. If you asked me how we have fared since 1999, I will say we have not fared well. Parties have not really practised what we call internal democracy.

 

Let’s quickly look at the standard of education in Nigeria and what will be your recommendation to uplift the sector?

For me, Nigeria should have a standard. Some people said if not that government established institutions, they would not have gone to school. Education has passed that. Everybody cannot be a university graduate; neither can everybody have OND or HND. There are people we call technicians who can be upgraded and they will be useful to the nation. To go to school, government should make a provision through which people who are learned, knowledgeable can take loan and fund their education. Education is not a cheap thing. Education requires fund, even in America and Europe.

Why not replicate what operates in Europe in Nigeria so that we pay less? Even if universities are allowed to charge school fees ranging from N200,000 to N400,000, are we not paying N400,000 or N500,000 on children in secondary schools? If we can pay N200,000 or N500,000 and sometimes N120,000 in secondary schools but we cannot even pay up to N50,000 in our universities, how do we expect such an educational system to function? We have just theories but no research in the universities. The earlier we redefine our educational sector, the better for us. The Federal Government has got no business with education but must provide the enabling environment to make education function and bring in a regulatory body that will regulate the standard of education in the country.

 

The issue of the sovereign national conference, we had something …

Yes we had conferences but they were not sovereign because there is a difference. Sovereign is an authority, that you have the authority to produce it. But you have a conference without authority whose recommendations you bring to the National Assembly before they pass it and it becomes law and enforceable. But a sovereign national conference is the one that has authority to pass as National Assembly and it becomes enforceable. In fact the sovereign national conference can nullify one of the chambers of the National Assembly.

 

Which section of the Constitution specifically supports sovereign national conference?

That is why I am trying to inform you. Section 4 of the constitution has authorised the National Assembly to make law. They are the only body to make laws in the country. Now, if you are talking about sovereign, it has taken part of the functions of that section 4 to enact a new constitution. It doesn’t require to come back to the National Assembly. They cannot legislate backward of the National Assembly but can legislate one of the Chambers out.

 

Does it require the president’s assent?

A sovereign national conference does not require the president’s assent because it becomes law; it is binding on the president and the three arms of government.

 

What should trigger it?

The executive can trigger it; the National Assembly can also trigger it to wave their own power. But do they have the means of waiving their powers? I can waive my power for a sovereign national conference. I don’t know of others, but I can, for the sake of the children that are unborn and for the sake of my children who are young today and who have a future tomorrow.

 

Let us look at public assets that we have privatised, we have concessioned a lot of things. What value are we getting?

We have privatised wrongly. Look at the Discos, they are interested in getting high tariff. They have not put any inch of structure to add to the one they took over. The same light in my federal constituency remains the same thing. They have not added any value.

 

It is a story of lamentation all through for the country, why?

My brother, it is the story of high-level of lamentation, not just lamentation.

 

If you put Nigeria side by side with other countries like Brazil, Malaysia, China, Korea, I think we were far ahead at a giving point in the 70s but …

We have highly educated people in this country. You are talking of that one. What of private sectors, look at banks giving loans from 24 to 30 per cent, yet the interest rates in banks, when you want to do fixed deposit, is one per cent. Is that not of interest to you? What is CBN doing? Treasury bill at 1.80 per cent? You are asking people not to invest their money, not to fix deposit in banks but that Nigerians can take loans that are still being given out at between 24 to 30 per cent interest rate and yet the Federal Government, CBN, the judiciary and the legislators are not saying anything. What are we talking about? How do you grow economy? Are you not seeing that the bankers are shylocks, benefiting from government and not making impact to the community while you journalists keep quiet? The CBN warns Nigerians not to keep their 10 kobo in the bank, but invest them and yet, banks that are supposed to be a multiplying effect to engineer a strong economy and multiplying effect are giving loans between 24 to 30 percent and CBN has the audacity to bring down fixed deposit to one per cent and treasury bill at 1.8 per cent. Who is deceiving who?

 

Can we put the blame on the monetary and fiscal policies we are running…?

Have you seen an economy where such [policies] exist? The US gives loans at 5 per cent, sometimes lower or at zero something per cent. Yet the fixed deposit is at zero point something 6 percent.  To fix money in America, it is zero point something. It attracts nothing but now, they are given at low percentage. Show the economy that is doing that. They want to imitate America or Europe. They should imitate them completely and not enrich bank CEOs.

 

Don’t you think this is the failure of oversight on the part of the National Assembly?

What about the Executive? Is it only the National Assembly that performs oversight? It is under executive command. Has the president looked in that direction or minister of finance? Let us call on Mr President to look in that direction and the minister of finance. How many people have money to fix in Nigeria? They are not more than 2 to 3 per cent. The money that the banks are supposed to give to the multitude of people, about 90 sometimes per cent to go and rejig the economy, and you are giving loan at 24 to 30 per cent. Who are you deceiving? The only way this country can be better is when those at the top feel more pain with the masses feeling a little pain. Only then can the economy be rejigged effectively.

 

But what about the middle class?

Are you not the middle class? You are a middle class because you can afford three square meals in a day but that man on the street that does labour cannot fix three square meals a day. He is a lower class and you are a middle class. Are civil servants not receiving salaries, directors, deputy directors, assistant directors, managers, assistant managers, those are middle class? The topmost of the classes are those who make choices of universities their children go like Howard, Harvard, Oxford, etc. Civil servants take their children to schools where they pay 400,000 or 500,000, are they not middle class? When you talk about lower class, they are the ones who take their children to public primary and secondary schools that pay nothing.

 

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