Restructuring will happen in 2019, no one can stop it —Sheikh Gumi

Frontline Islamic scholar, Sheikh Ahmed Gumi, speaks with Northern Bureau Chief, MUHAMMAD SABIU, on the state of the nation, vis-a-vis the 2019 elections, restructuring, Boko Haram insurgency, the imbroglio between Governor Nasir el-rufai and teachers in Kaduna State, among others issues.

There is a report trending on the social media quoting you as telling Nigerians not to vote for the All Progressives Congress (APC) in 2019. Did it really come from you?

Bismillahi Rahamani Rahim (in the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful). Yes, I have seen the statement being circulated on the social sedia, but it was a misrepresentation of what I actually said. I am not partisan in every sense of the word. I am not an APC or the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) or any of the other political parties’ stalwart or even a member. The truth is I didn’t call anybody to vote for any party, except that what I usually do is to advise political parties, individuals, as well as politicians so that we can have a better country. So what I said was not what was presented; it was really misleading. What I did said was APC, as it is presently and PDP, can’t solve the problems of the country because they have become regional parties. APC today is North and South West party, while PDP is essentially a South South and South East party. So, as regional parties they can never hold this nation together. We need a party that is national in outlook. So, I call on both APC and PDP to metamorphosise. I gave an example with a butterfly that, as beautiful as it is, if there is nobody to love it, it is useless. The same way a bad thing can metamorphosise to become a good thing. So, I am calling on APC to open its gate for South South and South East.

I am happy now that I am talking to you, I heard that the son of the late Chief Odimegwu Ojukwu has joined APC. This is what I have been saying since one year ago about the need to really have a national party. APC should stop demonising PDP; a plane cannot fly with one wing. For a good healthy democracy in the country that can be beneficial to all of us, we need very strong political parties. Again, PDP should come out of its cocoon and become a national party too. People in the North should embrace PDP and the South West should embrace PDP too. This will now look like the country has two balanced national parties and Nigerians would now make a choice. But the way the ruling APC is demonising PDP, always saying we inherited a bad situation, among other things, is not healthy for the country. If we are to judge them according to their score card, they are a total failure.

The Federal Government has repeatedly said it has defeated Boko Haram, but the sect continues to wreck havoc. What do you think is the problem and what do you think is the way out?

Militarily speaking, Boko Haram is degraded to the barest minimum level and the sect cannot pose a concrete military threat; they have been defeated. But Boko Haram, as a terrorist organisation cannot be defeated militarily. You have to bring in the ideological content and the ideological fight which the government is not doing. So you can see before this government came on board, the sect have become a powerful force conquering some territories. But now, you cannot say that because they can easily be attacked. The sect has, over the years, turned from a state to a terrorist organisation and this can only be countered only with an ideological warfare. This is what the government is not doing and I might not blame the government for not doing what it is supposed to do because Nigeria is a complex country. We have a mutant Islamic ideology: it means the government has to get involved in the spreading the correct Islamic ideology and once the government gets involved in religion, the other regions will say the government is taking side. This is the problem or dilemma any government in power will face.

You have to be spending money to make people understand the real Islamic ideology as against this dangerous ideology being propagated by the sect. For instance, if you collect the walking stick of a blind man, unless you give him another one, he cannot walk. This is the problem. So, the government should get involved in the propagating the correct ideology by sponsoring the moderate voice. It goes the same way to the Fulani herdsmen. A Fulani herdsman is a Muslim who listens when you approach him on the ground of religion. But when you approach him tribally, he will not listen to you. So, the government has to spend money on Fulani herdsmen and Boko Haram.

Here, Christians have to understand that government has to come in and also sponsor the moderate voice so that it can be able to defeat terrorism. In the United States, for example, the government supports the moderate voice; their scholars are heard, but in Nigeria who hears the scholars? The scholars are only heard in the mosque, but the mosque is not enough: you have to go to the villages and hamlets; you have to sponsor people to do it. Who will go to the village when you don’t support him? The exploitation of Islamic Religion in the North is carried out in these villages because these villagers are left at the mercy of the hawks. Even the recent crisis in Zaria, if you investigate properly, you will see that most of their followers come from the villages. So, the government has to come in actively because, when you leave the people like that, they will always be exploited and misused. We cannot afford to neglect them. It is like leaving a sword with a child: he will always use the sword to commit crime.

Some northern leaders are in the habit of attacking President Muhammadu Buhari and his policies. Where do you stand in most of the issues generating controversies and attacks on the president?

When you said leaders in the North are fond of attacking the president, I don’t agree with this view. Why? This is because I can only see one or two people in the North who have been vocal on the president’s policies. It is not that the North agrees but they fear the repercussions from the Buharist fanatical followers; it is not the rich or intellectual class that is against him, but the political thugs. But this has diminished because now you can hear people, even musicians, criticising the president on his policies but before nobody can express his views. I didn’t attack him or supported him either, but what I did was to talk on what I feel was the best for this country and Nigerians.

I recalled I advised former President Goodluck Jonathan to rescind from contesting; let him sacrifice. Let Buhari too sacrifice and allow neutral people to vie for the presidency because I feel the unity of the country is the most important element in our nation building efforts. Once you have an antagonistic approach to politics, even if you put somebody there by proxy, if the people don’t like him, there will be problem. If you put in a bad person and the people like him, he will succeed.

I know that Jonathan then had problem with the way he was handling the Boko Haram issue. He allowed the insurgents to be conquering local government areas, states and he did not have enough courage in handling the issue of the Chibok girls; he did not have enough courage to muster an onslaught militarily. Even though, at the dying end of his regime, there was effort to thwart the insurgents but, honestly speaking, it was too late. That was why I wrote to him, advising him not to contest in 2015 because the people of the North will reject him. So, why should you stand for an election and be rejected because nobody understands that you don’t have a hand in the problems at hand? Just like now, the northerners are finding it difficult to understand that the issue of IPOB is not a political reaction to the emergence of Buhari, but rather it is an innocent demand. So, I don’t think Jonathan had his hand in issue of the Chibok girls, because Boko Haram is an ideological movement that became strong during his time.

So, what I wanted that time was let them leave the scene and allow the people to elect neutral people but they didn’t listened. And I am seeing the same scenario repeating itself because, just recently, I heard Jonathan saying he is the cause of the PDP defeat in 2015 and that he will not rest until when he sees the party coming back to power in 2019. What his statement simply meant is that he will be actively involved in the politics. So, if by chance Buhari too clinched the APC ticket, it means we will be seeing the resurfacing of the rivalry between the duo. We have seen that in 2011, 2015 and in 2019, it will still be a Buhari/Jonathan third term struggle for power. Jonathan, you can support your party, but don’t take that frontal posture or show that you are struggling. Don’t do that; stay behind your candidate. But on the whole, the better thing for Buhari, without mincing words, is to step aside and allow somebody to come out; somebody who can be accepted anywhere and will not divide the nation; somebody that will not polarised the nation.

APC can do something like that by putting somebody who will not polarise the nation. The same thing is applicable to PDP: let them shop for somebody that will not divide the country. So, let Jonathan stay out of the scenario and let Nigerians have the choice of electing two neutral people. I think if we are able to do that, the country will be solidified. Whoever wins, the other one will embrace him. This is what I hope and this is the sacrifice both Buhari and Jonathan will have to make for the country. We have children that are growing and these politicians have done their part. Nigeria is now on autopilot; our destiny is in the hands of God. No man can change the destiny of Nigeria and so nobody can come and claim that he is the messiah this country needs. Nigeria has no messiah; we have to go back to God. So let people who are neutral, who have no bad records or dented past come out and let us support them. But if we still recycle these old politicians, the rivalry will continue. Then, when are we going to get it right?

But in the event that the president decide to go for second term, will you vote for him?

That is what I am advising him: he should not represent himself. Let him not be deceived by those so called cabals or governors because these governors wanted to come under his shadow. It might not happen like it happened in 2015. That shadow they are thinking of is no longer there. Let them tell him the truth. Some are benefiting from the system so they will not tell him the truth. The fact of the matter is Nigerians are suffering. Let them not deceive him. Look at what happened to Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe. The whole world and even his people turned their back against him and this is somebody who has struggled to gain independence for his people. So Buhari should not stay to that extent like Mugabe and be bully at the end of the day. Nigerians cannot afford to pass through another four years of pains and sufferings. What the government has done is to give people Panadol; they are always giving us excuses on why they are failing. We are tired of these explanations. Nigerians want to hear the success story and not every time to come and give us Panadol. Cure me! The nation cannot stand for another four years like that.

What do you think the president should do on the inter-agency rivalry and face off between officers of the State Security Service (SSS) and the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC)?

This is part of the dysfunction of the government. APC is an alloy which is not well-molded: that was what I said in that interview that I was misquoted. What concerns the party is anything other than Jonathan. The party is an amalgam of different people and different ideologies. What I can say categorically is Buhari is passionate about this country, but he doesn’t have the instrument to turn things around. Is just like a hospital where a patient is brought and he needs to be operated, but there is no surgeon but a physician. The physician likes the patient to survive; he is passionate about the patient, but he doesn’t have the instruments to cure the patient. That is what is happening now. That’s why I said APC does not have the capacity and ability to hold Nigeria together. Look at the symbol of APC, the broom. If you hold the broom and you want to sweep Nigeria, it means you want the surroundings to be clean. But this is in a complete contrast to what is happening today. APC’s pronouncements are nothing but corruption; Nigerians are these or that. People want to hear positive message of unity, positive message of hope. Call Nigerians and tell them we are all dirty; we are not all clean. Let all of us come together and uplift this nation: that is the message we need.

What is your advice for the president on the national economy?

This bring us to the earlier question of inter agency rivalry. The president can easily handle it by bringing people who understands the job and once there is a complaint about anybody, don’t drag the nation. For example, if somebody is rejected by the Senate, even if he is good, don’t drag the nation. We are about 180 million Nigerians: you don’t want this person, okay take another person. The president should always try to pacify and try to do what the people want: he should listen to the people.

What do you think is the solution to the controversy generated by the teachers’ competency test carried out by Governor Nasir el-Rufai of Kaduna State?

The solution I will proffer is for a good leader who is like a father who has children and some of the children are not working up to expectations. You should embrace those children that are not doing well and show them how to improve themselves. You can’t throw them away as they are also your children. The governor’s attempt to revive the education sector is commendable, but the only problem is that his reaction to it needs to be corrected. He can retain those who have improved and those who are not should be redeployed to other areas. The number of teachers involved is awesome. Yes, we should be concerned about education; this is a national urgency. Even the president said the nation has to look at it.

What is your take on the increasing agitations in the South for restructuring?

I don’t think there is anybody who is against restructuring because the world is in a continuous dynamic state of change. Nothing is static. Restructuring has been going on since we started as a country. Restructuring is coming. There is nothing that can stop it. The old class of politicians is going; they are definitely going. People should be patient. Restructuring is a continuous process and nobody can stop it. It can only be delayed, but it is coming. I see it in 2019. Restructuring will definitely come to Nigeria. Old people like Chief Olusegun Obasanjo, Buhari and Ibrahim Babangida that fought the civil war may be nostalgic about it because they had their own vision of Nigeria at that time, but the truth of the matter is that Nigeria must change. Nigeria must be re-constructed. In the United States of America (USA), their states are like countries. If we restructure, this Boko Haram issue will be localised to a particular people or section because that ideology must have the support of the locals. So, if you take it to Ibadan, will it survive? If you take it to Sokoto, will it survive? If you take it to Katsina, will it survive? Not only that: restructuring will also solve the problem of Fulani herdsmen. So, we need to restructure. In fact, restructuring is coming, no doubt about it: no man can stop it.

The Sultan Bello Mosque is unique in the propagation of Islam and peaceful co-existence in the country. Your late father was once in charge of the mosque. But some recent events have distorted its significance. What went wrong and has sanity been restored back to the mosque?

There was never any problem in the Sultan Bello Mosque. Look, a place of worship is a House of God. It should not be dictated by anybody outside the walls of the house. You cannot go to the Church and dictate about who is going to be the pastor. It is the congregation that will choose who they want. A place of worship is not a government property; rather it is a private property. The mosque in question is not a national mosque as it was built by some individuals. So, for some people to come and grab it and dictate to us, giving some fake reasons without taking into account the feelings of the people, the school and the long history of the mosque, it is an insult to those people that established it; an insult to the congregation and insult to the school. So, we told those concerned that they don’t have such right. What happened to us is a clear message to other mosques. But having said that, the onus is on those praying in the mosque to choose their Imam whenever there is a vacancy: not to bring somebody outside the congregation. It is only if you build your personal mosque or personal church, you can now appoint who you want.

I want to put it on record that the mosque was built through the collective efforts of some individuals during the First Republic, not as a government property. These people were the late premier of the Northern Region, Sardauna, my father and some permanent secretaries. They did that as Muslims, not as government officials. As individuals who were keen about their religion. They came together and agreed to establish an organisation which is today known as Jama’atul Nasrul Islam (JNI). The JNI got contributions from Kuwait: then they established the mosque and a school, the Sardauna Memorial College. So, they now invited traditional rulers and made them patrons. From there, all the da’awa of my father took place in the mosque. He was completely in charge of the mosque. In fact, the first office of JNI was in my father’s personal house. So, when he died, things turned upside down. People wanted to claim the glory, but they didn’t plan for it. They ignited the crisis to look as if it were a security problem. Even if it is a church people started fighting, will the police come in? This was what they tried to do and when we placed our facts before the constituted authorities, they agreed with us. So, my advice to the government always is not to interfere in the people’s rights.

Secondly, Islam doesn’t like imposition. We had to remove the imam because of his conduct. You see, we came to EID prayers and there was heavy rain that day and people were waiting for him to come and he was nowhere. I called the Na’ibi to take charge, but he said he had not prepared any sermon because he didn’t know he would be asked to lead the congregation. At this point, some people dragged me to take charge, which I did. It was later that I was told the Na’ibi refused to lead the prayers because if he had done so, he would have been in trouble because of the bad relationship between him and the imam.

So, when I was leading the congregation, the imam came and misbehaved and some of the people in the congregation took him outside the mosque. Later, I told the congregation to remain calm; we will select a new imam based on three conditions. Number one, the imam’s beliefs must tally with the philosophy and ideology of the mosque. Two, he must be residing in the vicinity of the mosque, so that even when he has no petrol in his car, he can trek to the mosque and thirdly, after filtering candidates, we allow the congregation to choose an imam. So, why are they opposing this? The actions of the two prominent traditional rulers are questionable. I still have reservations over the whole thing because they caused the confusion. This is a mosque that has a long history and tradition, a peaceful mosque, only for the police to come and teargas the congregation. This was a very sad event. However, everything has come to an end; sanity has been restored. We are now trying to establish standing rules of succession in accordance with the sunnah. This is to guide against future occurrence.

Are you grooming any of your children to succeed you?

That is why we said we are putting in place a succession structure in picking the imam. It is not about your child, but somebody within the school that is capable of holding on to the philosophy of its founding father. But if Allah wishes, any of my children can assume the leadership position in the future. There is nothing that is impossible before Allah: if He so wishes, any of my children can become the Sheikh also. Thank you, Tribune.