Nigeria still battling 50-year-old issues ­—Esele, ex-TUC president

LET’S talk about insecurity in the country, which has almost brought the country to its knees, so to speak. What went wrong and why are we seemingly gravitating towards the valley of death?

It is the total breakdown of our social fabric. There is a family breakdown. Our social fabric, value system, have broken down. If the security apparatus of this country wants to end this problem, I don’t think it will take them one year. It is possible. We have intelligence. I asked somebody one day, ‘If a Boko Haram member is given #20,000 to carry bomb and destroy lives and property, what stops us from using our millions of dollars to have what is called Intelligence Assets inside of Boko Haram’? The Nigerian security is such that the less you look, the less you see. If you are in a battle and you go on for too long, it means there is a serious problem. There are both internal and the external forces that are against the war against the menace of Boko Haram. There are people who are benefiting from Boko Haram insurgency. Those people will not want it to end. It is now left for the President and Commander-in-Chief to put all of the security personnel on their toes to make sure they bring it to an end.

A senator brought up the issue of having an agency for ‘repentant Boko Haram’ members. Don’t you consider it as one of the options that is capable of bringing an end to insurgency?

One, how do you know the person is repentant? Two, there is a difference between economic agitation and religious agitation. The economic agitation can be solved. If you know this guy is jobless, you make a job available for him. But the religious agitation is ingrained in the person. The first thing you have to do is that you have to make sure that you collect their finger print. So, if ‘repentant’Boko Haram members are given amnesty like that, monitor them very well from time to time. If you’re giving amnesty to someone and you’re not monitoring them, that may be dangerous to the nation and he or she may also be an intelligent asset for Boko Haram.

We have two dominant parties being in power for long and Nigeria is still going through a vicious cycle or it is all motion, no movement, according to some observers.  Do you envisage a radical departure from what we have been experience under the PDP and the APC in the next few years or the current circus show will persist?

The problem we are having is an evolutionary problem. In the Second Republic, the situation was not about who was in the Unity Party of Nigeria (UPN) or who was in the National Party of Nigeria (NPN). But now, it is difficult to know who is in the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) and who is in the All Progressives Congress (APC). However, one of the challenges that we face is that our country right now the youths have nothing to burn their energy on. When I was much younger, even in the secondary school, we would be discussing the issue of free education; that we wanted it. We wanted qualitative education. What you have now is that in the absence of ideology, the parties have not made ideology available for the youths to discuss. So, if you go to the social media, what you find there are ethnic and religious discussions. And that is why we are where we are now. Nobody is discussing technology. Therefore, our youths are looking for something to keep themselves busy. The discussion now is (Comrade Adams) oshiomhole and (Governor Godwin) Obaseki. And, ordinarily, what we should be discussing is development. In Nigeria, as a whole, people now discuss whether the slot of the 2023 presidency should go to the North or to the South. Is it the turn of the North or of the South? They are not discussing the topic: Is this the better time to have a developed technology, better laws for our country, improved education? Instead, we are discussing mundane issues. What we discuss now are issues that we, as a country, ought to have settled more than 50 years ago. How many amendments has the US Constitution had? The original founders of the US were visionary leaders and they already looked at the future. They saw a Barack Obama; they saw a Donald Trump; they saw a George Bush. They know how human beings behave and so they put checks and those checks are what made the US great. They build institutions. Our leaders should build institutions and respect institutions.

Former President Olusegun Obasanjo is of the view that the National Assembly cannot give Nigerians the kind of constitution they deserve because perceived lapses in the existing constitution. Do you have a contrary view?

I know the area of concern that Obasanjo has. But, one thing is very clear; I don’t think we should be doing anything outside of the constituted authority. We should not be doing anything outside of the institution that is saddled with the responsibility to carry out that function. The functions of amending the constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria are clearly spelt out in the constitution. So, we must respect that Constitution. What we must do is that every other person must now form themselves into pressure group to ensure that the National Assembly actually thinks in a particular direction that will strengthen the country. The number one person has to be the president. The president himself has to show commitment that he wants to see how the country will be in 50 to 100 years. You will notice that even Obasanjo was a president of Nigeria. The way this country is now and the way it was during Obasanjo, there are very little differences. We still have the problem of restructuring. When Obasanjo was there, they were talking about restructuring. They then came to how the country should be in 50 years. The unfortunate thing that Nigeria has been battling with, right from our independence, is that it did not have a leader who has a 50 to 100 years horizon for the country. So, if you don’t have that, it doesn’t matter who is the president. Since long years that Nigeria has spent, the leadership that we have had what I call ‘four years or eight years’ mentality’ or ‘next election mentality.’

And in any case, we lack the broad view; that is why we feel that every year, we are talking of constitution amendment. People don’t do that in other part of the world. This is because when people sit down to draft their constitution, they forget their tribe, religion, where they are from and they forget about themselves. They think about their children their children’s children, and the future of the country. When you hear people talking about constitution amendment every now and then, it tells you lack of vision, selfishness and it tells you that people are interested in only what will benefit them.

A lot of people differ on what they feel might have informed the view of the former leader on the issue. With the benefit of hindsight, what do you think he had in mind when he made that proposal?

What I think is at the back of his mind right now is the state of insecurity in the country, with every state now thinking of how to provide security for itself. There should be issue of tribal marginalisation, one tribe feeling marginalised. Even those who are clamouring for restructuring still have the feeling of ‘my-own-my-own’ and the restructuring will not last as expected. They still have, in essence, sectional interest, rather than having a national outlook. I will give you an example. I’m from Edo State. I was born in Benin. I live in Rivers State. I have spent over 20 years in Rivers State and my economic and social well-being was in Rivers State. My wife is also from Rivers State. Now, when opportunity would come, for me to now tell Rivers State ‘Thank you for all this support and help,’ maybe, I want to offer public service. So, you can see that we don’t have that love for the country. If I were an American, I get American citizenship and I live in a place for six months and I have paid my taxes in that place, I can contest in an election. The only office I cannot contest for is the office of the president because I was not born in the US. But in Nigeria, you can’t; even if your father and mother are Nigerians, they give birth to you where you reside, you cannot contest for a seat in the state House of Assembly, House of Representatives, the Senate and governorship in more than 90 per cent of our states. The only state that gives you a little bit of liberalism is Lagos State. It is only in Lagos State and that is why it is the most progressive state in Nigeria.

Another school of thought is that we should have a Constituent Assembly that will come up with a draft constitution, instead of the National Assembly amending the existing constitution?

If we have a Constituent Assembly, that assembly must be a product of the law; not by executive order. I remember the National Constitutional Conference organised by former President Goodluck Jonathan. It didn’t go anywhere because it was not a product of the law. It was an executive order. So, we have mutual distrust.

All elected public officials from 1999 were elected based on the existing constitution. Why has it been difficult for most of them to realise the huge defects in the document before now and do the needful?

That is why I told you that Obasanjo is also part of our leadership. He is one of those that lack the decision of seeing the country in 100 years’ time. I respect him. Anybody who fought the Civil War and put his life on the line earns my respect. I respect him for that. But, in terms of leadership, I mean forward looking and visionary leadership, Obasanjo failed the country. He has had several opportunities. One, he was the Head of State that midwifed the 1999 Constitution. He didn’t see any reason why we should go back to, even, the regions. Secondly, he was the president of Nigeria in 1999 and he also didn’t see any reason to restructure this country. But we cannot throw the baby and the bath water away. It is now left for us to re-engineer our country.

Let me take you back the memory lane. The reason I’m telling you we have not had a good leader that love for country is as follows: When the military came to power, I mean General Yakubu Gowon, before we had four regions. Then, we had those regions. The reason they created the then 12 states was not because they loved Nigeria. States have not been created to unite the country. They did state creation to continue to strengthen the centre and to avoid any threat to the federation. That is the reason they created states; just to weaken the regions which I will call ‘divide and rule.’ So, the quality of leaders we have has been of self-interest and not national interest. They will tell you ‘fellow Nigerians.’ How much do they love Nigeria? But if you see their actions, you know that that is not true. The successive military governments weakened the country in a very serious manner and that is why we are facing many challenges nowadays. The physical aspect of Nigeria is when we say we have thousand square kilometres. When the military overthrew the civilian government, physically they felt they were succeeding. But what they have set out is that when you have guns, you have power. Now, everybody starts saying that ‘If I have gun, I have power.’ We had coups and counter-coups, but those behind the coups and counter-coups would tell you they wanted to fix Nigeria. None of these people fixed Nigeria.

Have civilians been able to fix it? Has there been a paradigm shift even during the civil rule that is more than 20 years now?

You don’t expect miracle to happen overnight. You will find out that under Jonathan and Obasanjo, we had a semblance of a democratic dispensation. You have arbitrary arrest, lack of respect for the rule of law under Obasanjo’s eight years. Look at the people who are ruling now, they were young during the military prolonged military era in the country. Naturally, your ideas and evolution are formed when you are 12 years old. By the time you’re 19, you’re now battling for control. So, if you look at some of the governors now, the way they behave is as if we are in a military government. That is what they grew up with. A democratic government must follow due process. Over the years, the people who are leading the country right now are products of the military government; those who were born during the military government, those who formed during the military government in the country.

If we want to do an amendment of the constitution, we have to slot in our values. Look at Omoyele Sowore’s case. Do we need the US or the European Union to tell us that when a judge has granted somebody bail, we must respect the court? Is it not in our laws? First thing first, you have to respect yourself so that you will be able to respect your laws.