Insecurity: We need to find those thinking for boko haram, others —IBB

WHAT is your take on the 50th anniversary of the Nigerian civil war?

I wish the country would never not witness such an ugly event again.

During your days in the military schools, did it ever occur to you that you and some of your colleagues from the South-Eastern part of the country would be locked in battle against one another in future?

It just shows you how things could go wrong in running a country where there were some civil disturbances which began to manifest itself at that time, immediately after independence. Elections were not well properly conducted and there were riots in various parts of the country which culminated in the civil war. And so, the leadership at that time believed very strongly that nothing should be done to break the unity of the country. And we were all brought out and trained to believe that we should be able to defend the integrity of the country.

So, any effort to disintegrate the country by any person or group of persons, we would resist, because of the training and political orientation that had been done by then military and political indoctrination.

Did you feel a sense of loss or relief when the civil war was declared over?

Yes, it was with a great sense of relief and I was somewhere in Okigwe, when my Commander General, Lieutenant General T. Y. Danjuma, came and broke the news to us that the war was over. It was with a sense of relief to me, because what I wanted to do immediately I heard was to find a colleague of mine; we trained together in Kaduna Military Training College then. We called him Amos. I really wanted to see him so that we could shake hands. He eventually turned up and we greeted ourselves, talked about our days as cadets and so on. And he, as a deserter, asked me; “Ibrahim, did you fight with me? Amos, were you also fighting me on this other side of the war front?”

And we both said we really had a reason to thank God that none of us was killed during that war. And we became friends again from there on.

Former head of state, General Yakubu Gowon, put in place a government after the civil war for reconstruction, reconciliation and rehabilitation, and upon which it declared that there was neither victor nor vanquished in the 30-month-old civil war. What was he trying to achieve then with that pronouncement?

We studied military history. I think we were informed to know that quite a number of countries in the world at that time went through civil wars and immediately after the civil wars , you  would come back, settle down and then, begin to integrate people into the mainstream of the society. And this was what was in our minds then. Fortunately, our head of state then, General Gowon, imbibed this, because he was a passionate believer in the unity of this country. He was determined. Since he said there was neither victor nor vanquished, we quickly began to adjust to remain as Nigerians and live our lives as Nigerians.

What was the state of the military at that time?

It was small in size when we started, because it was about five battalions or not up to 10, 000 in size. But by the time the war was over, it was about 250,000, because of the obvious mobilisation. So, from a small number of about 10,000, it moved up to about 250,000 in population. But the immediate problem at that time was to reorganise the Nigerian Army into a much more manageable size, cohesive and well trained army, well oriented for the purposes of reintegrating the nation.

All of you in the Nigerian Army  at that time, including  your contemporaries, your seniors and your subordinates, no one can talk you out of your belief in the unity of Nigeria even up till today; what is responsible?

Well, the unity of Nigeria, as far as we are concerned, is an article of faith, especially amongst my generation. Nobody would like to see this country  going through another civil war; nobody would like to see this country disintegrated, because by allowing that to happen, we would be unfair to those who put their lives on the line and for the purposes of keeping the country one. That would not be fair to them. If we are allowed to go our different ways as a people, we felt we would not be fair to them. Millions or thousands of people were killed. Some others were maimed; some were permanently disabled and so on. We shall not be fair to those people who lived their lives for the sake of this country to get the country united. That is why we have that belief. Those of us that are lucky to still be alive are very passionate about it.

Are you satisfied with the state of our economy, 20 years after democratic governance?

Quite frankly, I think we did gain a lot, if we compare ourselves with other countries that went through civil wars. I think we have done reasonably well, because immediately after the war in the 1970s, we had military governments before civilian governments. The military governed from 1966 to 1979 and a civilian administration governed from 1979 to 1983. Then, the military again, did from 1983 to1985. Then, there was another military government from 1985 to 1993 and yet another from 1994 to 1998. Now, we have been keeping the civilian administration in place and there has been no time for the military, because of the determination to install a democratically-elected government in the country. From 1999 till date, we have succeeded with the civilian administration in place. And this is all thanks to the military which is with the determination to subject itself to the authority of the democratic government in the country.

It has also been argued that many of the policies that were put in place immediately after the civil war, like the National Youth Service Corps (NYSC) scheme, the Unity Schools or Federal Government Colleges and so on, were deliberate policies designed to bring about cohesion in the country. But still, with these Institutions in place, Nigerians have not stopped seeing themselves as ethnic groups, rather than as Nigerians. Has the purpose to a large extent been achieved?

I think they have succeeded to a larger extent, especially in the NYSC programme, because most of the people who went into NYSC are students from universities and other tertiary institutions. They were intelligent enough, they read enough about what happened and they are able to go through history, intermingling. And so, it was quite easy, to a large extent, at that time. If you find persons of generation of 1973 till now, they are mostly with very strong belief about the unity of this country.

So, that is one of the reasons it has succeeded. Then, at the secondary school level, at the very young age, students are taught about the country and about the civil war to a certain extent. So, if you find the generations from 1973 till now, then you will see a very strong believers in the unity of this country. I think it was good for the country.

Many Nigerians have moved on since after the civil war. Some have inter-married, and it has become very complicated. Most children who were born after 1970 are usually products of two parents from different parts of the country. Those different ethnic cleavages that were prior to that time are not easy to make now. How do you see this?

Well, I think old habits die hard and the environment changes. There is this tendency to recline and go back to the old habits. If you suddenly find yourself in politics, for example, people tend to recline to their cocoon, because we didn’t have what I call reorientation about what politics is all about, after the civil war. We saw unity from fighting to remain united. We did not do much in trying to get people to indoctrinate them through political interactions and so on.

So, when we wanted to reintroduce politics, the first things that came to our minds were those political systems that used to be before the civil war. We saw that as a starting point and once you see that, you could hardly changed it.

Do you think that what happened in Rwanda, which is about one per cent of Nigeria in terms of population, could work here after their civil war?

I think in the case of Rwanda, I will say that it was leadership. They have a very strong person as a leader who believes very strongly in the country and, therefore, would like to see the country united like a lot of people who went through this problem of civil war or inter-tribal. To my mind, it is the leadership that could change the whole environment or the narration.

Do you know if such drastic thing could work here in Nigeria?

No. But if there is a strong leadership at the state and national level, I think we should be able to do it.

You have been part of government in the past. Here, we have about 500 ethnic groups, people with various cultures. Yet, we are led by one person. What was your experience in that regard?

Well, I think, as you said earlier, it is Paul Kigame that was saying that we should build supporters who believe strongly in what we are trying to do. And we tried it in the example you gave about the NYSC, Unity Schools and so on. I think we didn’t push it hard. We should have pushed all those programmes harder, so that we don’t have people who have problems in interacting with one another. But soon after the civil war, Nigerians went back to their cocoons and If I say this is where I belong to, I went to school with you, you are my classmate or you are in Lagos, I should have no problem going to Lagos when you are there and you too, if you are coming to Minna and you feel like you have somebody in Minna that you went to the same university with and you did NYSC together as well as attended the same secondary school. I think we allowed it to slack relatively.

One of the other things that were done to bring about the cohesiveness of the country was the creation of Abuja, the Federal Capital Territory (FCT). You actually effected the movement from Lagos to Abuja in 1991. Has it achieved the desired goal?

I think it did. But don’t forget that the whole idea of about Abuja came about in 1975 or 1976 during the Murtala Mohammed-led military administration. He had a vision, because of the sheer size of the country and a lot of ethnic groups in the country. He wanted to keep the country together as one so that they would have something they can call their own and he wanted everybody to belong to that.

I think the idea was good. Those of us who came after Murtala Mohammed, including even the civilian regimes, believed very strongly that that vision was the correct vision for this country. And so, we pursued it. Shehu Shagari tried to make it realizable, even if it was symbolically.

Now, there are those who see that the Nigerian military as a country and that if the Nigerian military is cohesive and united, the rest of the country will be the same, because the military, apart from bearing arms and ammunition, are the representatives of all those people and they can actually access what they do in their commands than the rest of the country. How does it sound to you?

I think this is the way it should be. The thinking is correct. You know, you cannot convince me, for example, that this country should break. I would talk to you for a long time if you should tell me that, because I know people died keeping the country one. Thank God we are trying to keep the country one. So, my generation will always insist that this country should remain one, because we knew the consequences of the war. We knew the pains people went through in keeping the country one. So, the reason we have to give is to keep the country one and it is not too much a demand on us in keeping the country together.

And the whole thing depends on the leadership. One of the things I would have loved to see in politics is that if you want to pick a leader, you should be able to assess it first about the unity of the country, so that you will not jeopardise it; if he will try to use everything within his powers legitimately to make sure that the country remains one. There are about 200 million people in this country. There are some people whose generations should be below me, who will always be ready or prepared to defend this country and the generations who would move this country towards the required objectives. I am sure that Nigeria will not go with my generation, because my generation is committed towards keeping the country together and they will use everything possible to apply logic, advise and talk, just to make sure that the country remains as one indivisible entity.

The military bears arms and the rhetoric out there is that they are not interacting with the civilian populace as much as expected and that most of the time when the interactions take place, they usually end in the civilians getting the short end of the stick because the military brooks no dissent. How do you see this?

That was the military before, because immediately after the Second World War, which is very long ago. But we are becoming more civilized and educated. Since the Second World War, we have been made to understand how the military was and for us to understand military-civil relations, because we are preparing to make sure that the solder is supposed to be obedient to a democratically-elected government that represents the people. And democracy is the whole concept of governance, so that the solder will not stage a coup against a civilian administration. I can tell you now, only a stupid solder will think of a coup-d’etat. Military rule is no longer acceptable in Africa, West Africa and in the world generally.

So, the solder is intelligent enough to know that if he stages a coup, the country will be cut to size in the comity of nations. Although there can be an uprising, the people you had wanted to defend would rise up against you in your own country. So, the solder is no longer fashionable. This is as a result of the civil-military relations. The institutions have improved quite a lot over this.

What will you like to see to speed up this national cohesion in the country, with regards to reconciliation, reintegration and rehabilitation, because 50 years on, there are people who still believe that the country is not fully reintegrated? Some people still feel they are being discriminated against. What do you think should be done to deepen the process?

Our selection of leadership at all levels is the most important thing. Political leadership at all levels, military leadership and economic leadership. Once this is strong and nobody feels sabotaged and we all believe in this country, our people will have no problem.

Do you think the federal character system established by the Federal Government should be used to deepen this process?

To a certain extent, I think the federal character system did deepen the process, because it created some sense of belonging and balance in what government is trying to do. But you cannot carry it on to a ridiculous extent, saying because of federal character, you give a mediocre a job in place of a qualified person. We should not shortchange people. We have qualified persons throughout the country today. In any community, there are always graduates, people who hold Master’s degrees or probably professionals in different fields of human endeavours. Therefore, you cannot sacrifice quality in the name of federal character.

Have you now made up your mind to write your memoirs and narrate the story of your period as military president?

I think I belong to the school of thought of Winston Churchill. They are talking of historical legacy. He said history will be fair to him because he is going to write it himself. So, maybe because I share this opinion, I will write it, God willing, so that when I write it myself, I want history to be fair to me.

We know you are a great reader, especially of books on contemporary leaders like Douglas McCarthy…

It is because Douglas was my character or person. He was a very brilliant man and he came immediately after the Second World War; he was very rational, very charismatic and strictly professional. So, those of us who believe in the profession see him as a good example. Anabel cuts the picture of a tough mind. When he spoke about the military, he said it was not about the weapon, but the man behind the weapon. So, despite all the problems, he has been able to lead people. People followed him because they knew he would not lead them astray. Those are the sorts of characters that we had studied over time. These types, what they were, they don’t need what they can offer now, rather, they need people who can use their intellects. They convince you. This is the right thing to do. I think I have had to follow him because, you know, he was not going to lead you astray.

On the current state of insecurity in the country, you talked about the military being overstretched, when the security challenges seem to have increased or metamophorsed from one type to another, depending on who you are talking to. What need to be done about insecurity in the country?

I think a lot more needs to be done, quite frankly. If what you read in the national newspapers or what you listen to on the radio is true, there are still some challenges in most of these areas. But the security situation has been stabilised. I read in the papers about the young governor in Borno State who was telling the minister of defence that there were still some places that people could not go within the state. I am glad he said so because that technique will give the military high command the results.

So, there are still a lot of challenges and what they need to do is to get a lot of intelligence in those areas. But it looks to me that there are people who are thinking for the Insurgent groups and there are people who think for them and the thinking is that we need to find out who are thinking for them. Who are the people leading them and supplying them weapons. We need this in order to put a stop to all that. That is probably the way I assess it now, because of what is happening. However, the military is still overstretched. To get the police to do the job, there may be the need to withdraw the military from some of these things. Most of the jobs they do, under normal circumstances, are the jobs that the policemen should be doing. The military only intervenes when it has gone beyond the police. And it is a process; military takes over from the police. So, if they say they are going to get the police to take over, they will get more policemen. They will train more policemen, so that where it gets really tough is where you ask the military to go in.