SEGUN KASALI, TUNDE ADELEKE, ELLIOT OVADJE and LANRE ADEWOLE had an interesting session with Chief Magistrate (Princess) Oluwatoyin Gwendolyn Oghre, of the Lagos Judicial Division.
YOU were princess, a tomboy by nature and a rebel for the faith by choice. How did you combine all of these?
I was born to be Oluwatoyin Gwendolyn Ojo and I became Gwendolyn Oluwatoyin Oghre by marriage; I am married to Rev. Anthony Oghre and by the grace of God, we are blessed with two children – Abigail and David. I was born into a royal family in Isinkan, Akure. My father is still the Iralepo of Isinkan, which is a half part of Akure
My mom happened to be the first wife before he became the Iralepo. I knew my father was married to three wives from birth. I am the fourth child of my mom eventually, and then the seventh of my father. My mom had five girls that I knew (because I learnt she had nine of us) and our last born turned out to be a boy. In the family, because we were just girls, I learnt everybody used to tell my mom that all her children would become prostitutes (the normal Yoruba stuff).
My mom being illiterate, because she stepped down for her younger ones to go to school, became a seamstress, but later went into business. For that singular reason, she said she made up her mind that none of her children will become a vagabond. But I have step-brothers from my stepmothers. As we were growing together and they being boys, I just followed suit. My mom didn’t like that, but following my stepbrothers as a tomboy didn’t stop my educational pursuits.
Somehow, I caught up with two of my elder sisters and one of my stepbrothers in a class in the primary school, and we finished together. So as a younger person, my father would take us to Sunday school at St. David’s Anglican Church. Then, I would come back from Sunday school, and find my way out to go and rent a bicycle, against my mom’s wish, but my siblings would tell me to go and take money. They won’t take from their mom’s money, but I always go and take out of my mom’s money – 10 kobo of those days– without permission and would rent the bicycle. I would ride bicycle to the extent that I would be injured. I still have the marks to show on my legs, which I kept away from my mom, until she was bathing me one day. But that didn’t stop me from riding my bicycle and I kept doing that until I finished from primary school.
What about you and dad, I mean Kabiyesi?
Of course my father loves me. There is no doubt about that; and anytime my father travelled, I would fall sick as a growing child. My mother was telling me one day that there was somebody she wanted me to go and say ‘thank you’ to when I came back on holidays, but by the time I came back, she said the person had passed on, and I asked “Who was the person?” She said as a growing child, each time my father travelled, I would always fall sick, and she would be carrying me about on her back, looking for how to get me cured and she would cry and cry. But one day, he met this man and he asked “Why are you crying?” She narrated her story. I don’t know whatever the man gave to her, she used it on me and I became well. So, there was link between my father and I, somehow, which I could never lay my hands on. The only thing I remember is that I was never beaten. I can’t remember what it was that I even did, the only time my father tried to beat me, I just dodged from under his hand and ran away. So, he said “like mother, like child”. And beyond that, academically, he discovered I was doing very well. During holidays, my mom would have packed up newspapers my father would have read during my three months of being in school, I would be sleeping on those paper till my holidays would be over, reading through them, and anything I didn’t understand like puzzles, which he taught me to solve, I would take back to him. I would sit by his feet. He also taught me English Language.
Beyond bicycle riding, are there other memorable pranks?
After bicycle, it came to car driving. My mom said “don’t go and learn how to drive car”; my father said, “everybody should be taught how to drive”. I dodged her, followed my siblings. My father used to have this pick-up. So, I went to do driving lesson and, of course, I hit another car and came back home with a dented vehicle to the house and that was the last time I ever attempted to drive, until I got married, so many years after. Away from that, my tomboyish attitude, I think, helped my faith because when I got to secondary school, I went to live with an aunt of mine, Aunty Funke Jegede, now Mrs Adedokun. I knew that the family had this thing about her, like ‘se Christian l’eleyi?’ but I kept watching her and didn’t see anything wrong in her way of life, nothing at all! She was my CRK teacher at Fiwasaye Grammar School in Akure, and my mom’s cousin; that’s why I had to live with her because I wasn’t in the boarding house. Her upright life influenced me and I went to the Scripture Union group and I gave my life to Christ. Now, giving my life to Christ became a problem to my family. But my tomboyish attitude helped me because I just want to do things to please God and please myself; I have this independent-mindedness from my childhood. So, I told my elder sister; she is now born-again and now a Redeemed pastor, let’s go to retreat in Lagos because I got born again in The Apostolic Faith in Akure, but she would say “Mi o gba were m’esin bi tie”, meaning: I am not an extremist like you. I was calculating that if two of us should go together, we get punished together, but she refused to follow me. So, we would come with 911 to Lagos, travelling all night, those of us students in Fiwasaye. I never knew what accident was until 1993.
In your primary school days, did you get into fight with boys?
Not really, but I would always defend my siblings; that’s my my own. You can’t confront me on my own, but if you try to cheat my sibling, I’ll make sure I spank you. For instance, my brother, Dele, was quiet and gentle, if you try to cheat him, I would fight the person to the last. That much I remember.
For disobeying Kabiyesi over your faith, were you afraid he was truly going to disown you?
I was not perturbed; that’s the gospel truth. My mind was made up to serve God. From the moment I gave my life to Christ in 1977, I charted for myself the path that I needed to follow in life. So, all those periods, they would just reprimand, but that particular episode was such that when I came in from Lagos, about 8.30 or 9.00 p.m., father was not home and mother said, “Ayedun ya”(Let’s go to Ayedun); I asked, “What did I do? She said, “Let’s go and meet Baba Kekere” (Let’s go to your uncle’s house) – now of blessed memory. I said ‘okay, no problem. I just packed my things and we went to Ayedun. When we got to Ayedun, both my uncle and the wife were waiting for me as if they knew I was coming that day. They said, “o ti de?” (You have come), let’s go to the palace now. By the time we got to the palace, other people had gathered, and Kabiyesi had returned. At that meeting, you don’t have the guts to speak as a child. And up till now, I still behave the same way; I can’t talk to my father standing. At that meeting, they were talking and talking and my father was threatening, to disown me. Then, I signified my intention to speak; they said, ‘okay’. I said I had just a question, if I might be allowed to ask. They said in Akure dialect “Ji bere” (Let her ask). Then, I asked, “The throne you’re sitting on, who gave you the throne?” He said, “God”. Then, I said it is the same God I have decided to serve. He kept quiet. For me, it was just the Holy Spirit that took over, and my uncle (Deremi) and two of his chiefs said, ‘Kabiyesi, let’s leave her and see what would become of her.’ My father said, “okay”. Everytime I was given pocket money, the first thing I would buy is the Bible and when I came back home from school, he would take it from and I would replace it with my school’s pocket money.
This Gwendolyn, how did you come about it?
It’s my baptismal name.
I can’t remember seeing it anywhere in the Bible.
Actually, a friend of mine, Banke, we were classmates in the school; she was the person who bore that name, but people didn’t know. How she came about it, I don’t know. So, I went to search and I saw that it meant God’s blessing in Irish Language. So at baptism, I chose the name. When they read out the name, everybody was laughing at the name, including my schoolmates. But by and large, the name has become a household name.
The Obalufon-inspired dance of those days. You said it was very energetic.
I didn’t know my grandmother, but I knew my great-grandmother at Odooyi where we used to go to and they were the Obalufon people. We would always be taken to Odokoyi during the yam festival. My mom had an aunt, Mama Oleputu, she never had a child; she was actually dedicated to that Obalufon. I was very close to her as well. They would put a big pot of yam on fire and cooked; the very first layer was not allowed to be eaten. They would remove the first set of yam, crush them and add oil and little salt and then sprinle it round the entire compound. The remnant would be shared round the little children there. After that, we would then start dancing.
How?
We just danced, and the drummers would later join. The one that really struck me was this, we usually have this cultural dance in the primary school, even in the secondary school, I was in the cultural group dance. This particular one, we did the end-of-year cultural dance, we finished the cultural activities in school, and had done my natural thing and returned home tired. The next compound to us, as I was changing my dress, I just overheard those ones gisting, “Ah! O r’omo Baba Ojo Dispenser (my father was not yet a king then), loni bo se jo”, the other one said, “Nnkan ile iya e lo mu”. In my heart I was wondering what that could mean; then someone said, “O ti gbagbe ni, Obalufon, pe nnkan ile iya e lo gun”. Also in front of our house along Ondo Road, there was a photographer, Baba Ariyo or so, I can’t remember, but that’s where my teacher in the primary school used to leave, there was a radio technician who always played music; once I heard the music, I would just start dancing. Anywhere I heard music, I must dance. I keep dancing like that until I get tired. I just loved to dance, as far as I thought or concerned.
Can you elucidate on your experience of the Obalufon years and how you parted ways?
Number one, I never knew I was operating under its influence. I was still enjoying my dancing spree; in the church I would dance everywhere. Until I got to World Evangelical Bible Church because in the course of so many things that transpired after I had the accident, my mom passed on before the accident and was still in the mortuary. A week after she passed I had the accident and my wristwatch stopped at that hour. So, after the accident, that was when I knew what problem in life was; one thing led to another and led me to World Evangelism Church from my former church, which I joined when I was in the Law School with my late fiancé. It was my spiritual father who later became my father-in-law that called me one day when I was having serious problems that he suspected that there was demonic operation and said I should let him talk to his deliverance pastor friends, One thing followed another and I got to WEBIC. Then, I had, though I was still in the church; I thought there was no God, having gone through so many trials within a short time. But I was still going to church; I was still in the choir. I was still a worker, but I knew within me I had backslid. Eventually, after service I still waited to see the man and gave him the note. I thought he was just going to pray, but he called three powerful pastors, some of whom I still remember. They said I was going to do three days fasting, dry fasting, not just ordinary one. I tried it as an ulcer patient, but broke it; and I reported I had broken it and they said I should start it again. To the glory of God I got healed.
Now, the Obalufon thing, I never knew I was operating under any spirit until I got to WEBIC. Now, when my deliverance started, I just discovered that six, eight men, according to them, could no longer hold me. It got to a point that the man himself had to come in to handle me. I went through series of fasting, ranging from seven to 14 days. That was how God set me free.
Police will be professional, neutral in conduct of Kogi/Bayelsa…
The time you were just doing your thing without knowing you were under the influence of any spirit, did you have suicidal intentions?
Many of them; it was after the accident in 1993, on January 3, first Sunday of the year. I was coming to Lagos for youth service and my late friend was with me. He was posted to Ondo, my state and I was posted to Edo, his own state. Of course, I did not like the environment I was posted to. That was why I changed over to Lagos. When we were coming, we had the accident. After the accident, I never had any friend, apart from my late fiancé and my mom, and two of them died the same week. And I said I never liked Yoruba people because I believe they are polygamous and that they will always be fighting like in my our house. Polygamous would always bring fight. So, I never had any relationship with anybody until I met my fiancé, who was equally a Christian and we both studied Law; and he died the same week with my mom and they were buried the same day, January 9.
That must be very harrowing, two loved ones on same day.
He was buried here in Atan, which is very near to me here. But I was forced to go home for my mother’s burial. The church planned it in such a way that they would have done everything and so, they were buried the same day. But I forced them to take me to his burial ground when I came back, for we needed some scores to be settled. Then, I discovered that I would just sit alone in the house and invite Lucky. That was the only friend I had like I said. We would keep gisting and once he feels that I am okay that I have poured out my heart, he would ask if I was okay, I would say yes and he would say okay I would come back. Then, he would go. I was having that for sometime. Then, I was living at Surulere. After sometime when he was no longer coming frequently, I started hearing voices like ‘go and kill yourself’ and ‘ what are you still living for?. I just kept hearing all manner of stuffs. And, of course, it would normally come up after every beautiful Sunday service. I could do any other things on other days but the things would come over again once I finished service on Sundays. It would tell me what to buy at the chemist and I would buy them, unlike now where you have to get doctor’s prescription to buy some medications. Just across the counter, I would pick them up, get home, take them. When I obeyed the voice and crossed the road and still alive, the voice would now say go and buy the drugs. So, I would buy the drugs and use them, but in the morning, I would still wake up and start crying. I just discovered I didn’t die during the night and I would start crying. Along the line, my godfather’s wife would just start looking for me. She would tell me don’t kill yourself. Monday morning, I don’t know how it happened, she would now come and say don’t kill yourself because it doesn’t worth all the troubles. So, I was always attempting the suicidal thing but didn›t tell anyone about it. One Sunday. Daddy G.O. saw me going home and he now said, you would start living in our house from today. I was like, I got a three-bedroom to myself and protested but he instantly called his wife and said mommy, please, come Toyin is coming to live with us from today. I was like, I am not a baby and he knew I was a politician. He knew I already had boyfriend, though I was in his church. So, he knew all these stories but he said I should come and live in his house and the woman just said yes sir. I have never seen that kind of a human being in my life. But if it were me, I would ask the man when did we talk about it? But mummy did not say anything. Daddy just said send somebody to the house and let them go and prepare the guest room because she would come today. So, he told me go home, take whatever you want to and come back not knowing God had shown him those things. So, I went and came back. By the time I got to pastorium, my room was ready. It was an en-suite guest room. I stayed there but the thing did not stop. I would dress up to go to church or to go out and the thing would say tell the driver to take you to Ojota, cross the road and let the car hit you. And I would just dress, tell daddy and mummy I was going to church or going out and I would enter into a car in front of the house. Where Zenith back is now on Ogudu/Ojota road was the pastorium. So, when I get to the site of the church now, almost opposite Area H, another thing would tell me to tell the driver to drop me. Then, the church was not fully built, we were just starting construction Another thing would just tell me you are going to Ojota. Another thing would tell me that you have paid the driver. So, tell the driver to drop you here now not once, not twice. I can’t even remember how many times. It was later in the course of deliverance I understood a bit of all these things. So, they would end up dropping me and would enter into the church premises under the canopy and would go and sit down in one place. So, when mummy and daddy come, they won’t talk to me. But in the evening when they are going back home, mummy would come to me and say are you ready to go home now? I would say yes. She would now say enter the car.
I would say practically two people gave their lives for you- your mum and Lucky. When you reflect on this, what did they communicate to you and your refusal to die?
One, I see the love of God in action over my life probably because of my innocence of giving my life to him. My foundation was solid by the grace of God and something in me just want to serve God not because my parents were pagan or anything. Even when I backslided, I still knew I wanted to serve God. Like I wrote in the book, I had never seen my mum being sick for one day. But she had bought the cloth for my graduation and my call to bar and she never worn any of them. She didn’t even see any of my convocation on December 8, 1992 or my call to bar that she had worked all her life for, to see me become a lawyer. But my story of being a lawyer is a different ball game. I studied Yoruba before I changed back to Law in the fourth year, practically spending seven or eight years on campus. But I was young and I didn’t know the feeling. My mother never saw any of those days and that is one thing that pained me about life. I pray no mother and father would labour so much without seeing the days of the glory of their children in Jesus name. My father was the only one that was there. Meanwhile, my mum was the one giving me money most times but she would say my dad asked her to give me the money and I knew it wasn’t. My mother was that conscientious and submissive to a fault. I see the love of God upon my life not because I am better than Lucky. In fact, Lucky too was born again. Surprisingly, we determined that year on the first, that anything that would make us not serve the lord, we would not do it. Then, he died on the third day. In the course of the journey from Ibadan to Lagos, after finishing our NYSC, we were just chatting, planning how we would incorporate our business, how we would go and meet our parents and he would come and pay dowry. We were just chatting. Suddenly, he just said Toyin come to this place. Let me sit there. I just said okay. So, we changed seats, with him moving to the window side and I, away from it. Immediately, we just had a bursted tyre and the vehicle started somersaulting and that was all I remembered and thank God no vehicle was behind us. When I came out of the car, it was just a hand I saw. The hand put me on his palm and it brought me out through an opening. I just found myself on the floor. I didn’t come out of the vehicle by myself. My eyes were physically opened to see the hand but I didn’t see the other part of the body. I didn’t even know anything happened at that moment. Then, I looked back and I saw there was an accident. That was when it dawn on me there was an accident. Then, I started speaking in tongues small small. As I sat down there, I looked back and I saw Lucky with blood coming down from one side of the head. So, I said that is my fiancé and somebody should help him to come out. This time around, people we’re already out to help. As I said that, I just heard someone from a vehicle saying ah this one would soon die, look at blood coming out of her face. That was when I knew I had blisters on my left face. I said I would not die in Jesus name because I have a covenant with life. I just started speaking in tongues at that moment.
At what point did you realise he was dead?
Well, it turned out I was the only one who survived. When people came out to help by bringing out one vehicle to take me to hospital, I rejected the vehicle and thought I was going bizarre because I said I was not going anywhere. I said my fiancee is dripping with blood, you should go and bring him out. One of them now said I shouldn’t worry I should just go and bring out our things from the car. I told them that we were coming from Ibadan to tell his own elder sister that my mum passed on so that they can join us in Akure the following weekend for the burial. So, I went to pick out stuffs and the ID cards which I still have, have the blood stains till tomorrow. They are somewhere in the house. They now brought a car to pick me and I said, sorry my father has a better car than this. So, they asked what do I want and I said they should get me a white Mercedes Benz like the one my father uses. If not, I won’t leave this place. They left and somehow came back with this sparkling white Mercedes benz car and they were three guys in it- one driving, one at the front and the other at the back. They asked me does this look like my father’s car and do I like it? I said yes I do. It was those men that helped to pack my hair because I had a weavon. The cloth I wore was my graduation cloth. It was then I asked how long from where they picked me to Ikeja General Hospital and they said it was 10-minute drive. But I kept telling the guys that my fiancee was left behind and that two of us were coming. He said I shouldn’t worry that another vehicle would bring him. When we got to GH, there was only one doctor in attendance. They made sure I kept talking throughout the trip so that they could get information from me. So, the doctor ran down to attend to me and when a bus drove in, the three of them sensed that it was from the same accident scene because I sighted Lucky and I told them Lucky is in that bus. They said I shouldn’t worry that they would attend to him they way they were attending to me. So, they told the doctor to release this person to us because we would get in touch with her people and the doctor just handed me over to them. In any case, they now took me to Ilupeju Medical Centre along Oshodi expressway. Up till now, I don’t know where it is. But I know it was a twin duplex. So, those things touched me and from that day to today, I have not met those people. They located my church people and they told them I was at a particular place, nobody saw them again. I learnt that they told them at Awolowo way that they were going to Ilorin. But my mum and lucky’s death showed me that God has a need for my life. Two, despite those attacks and deliverances that were done, my husband would always remind me even in marriage that if God can deliver then, he will deliver you now because it is the same God that is still in charge.
Would I be right to say you were not destined to marry a Yoruba man or was it by personal design?
Well, I don’t know whichever of the two. All I just know is that I just don’t like them.
Can I ask why?
I said it that my father is a polygamist. All his siblings are polygamists. And in my father’s house, those three wives were always fighting. My mother and the other two wives were always fighting. So, I told myself that I won’t marry a Yoruba person and I would not marry an Akure person. I don’t even like them. Surprisingly, my mum had already told us as children that we were not meant to marry Edo people or Ijebu or Abeokuta or Egba. Surprisingly when I brought Lucky home, they accepted him. In fact, they loved Lucky and I don’t know for whatever reasons. So, when Lucky died, my father physically followed me to Benin with his chiefs and two of my siblings to go and submit himself to Lucky›s parents as Lucky to show the extent of love he had for Lucky. But from that day till today, I have not met Lucky›s parents. I don’t know for whatever reason. But what my father did, calmed them down. So, when it got to time to get married, it was Daddy G.O. that forced me into marriage. He would call everyone to meet me, to beg me, to go and get married. I said sir someone who said he was going to get married to me ended up becoming a fraudster in a relationship and that is a Yoruba man. His name is ….(hidden). In fact, he was my choir leader. He is now in America. He left his wife here, got married to someone else.
How come your husband started getting closer to you without a proposal and when did you decide to be taken up?
If you read his own book, you would understand this condition I want to put out now. If mummy G.O and Daddy G.O said yes, it is yes. If two of them say no and having come this far with my life, it is no. Anytime I called I would ask my daddy who did I even offend that it becomes so hard like this? He always tells me God will deliver me one day. But finding a spiritual parent who understood me, if they say no, bros just waka your own make I waka my own. I need to give him the same condition because he was a spiritual son to them too. His own case was different. He is from the family of pastors but he alone, was recalcitrant. If you read his book «power of choice», he said he followed his own to the church and that was how he gave his life to Christ and the turning point in his life. So, he too had that condition for me that if Daddy and Mummy say no that is no. So, we first went to my mum. And knowing the episode of Pastor….., mummy said let us going and tell your father. So, we went to see him and he said ok, but warned against seeing us together until God says he is the right man for me. But he (Bro. Tony who became the husband) would send me small small notes in the church (Laughs). So, one day, daddy called asking if I would not be coming to the house for the new year because I was already living in my own apartment at that time. So, I went and while serving guests with mummy, daddy said God said you can go ahead and marry Tony. Surprisingly, I did not even hear that. It was mummy that heard it and screamed out of the kitchen, saying praise the Lord.
Is there anything he has been trying to change in you?
Nothing o. The man knows I am a very tough person. He is a very gentle person.
Have you seen your husband in any of your children?
He is everything about the two of them. None of them looks like me in everything. They are just like their father. Nothing about me. So, I am happy.
What do you consider your weakness?
My area of weakness is taking my pictures away from me.
Why, ma?
Nothing. I just want to sit down in my leisure time and relax. My pictures tell me stories about so many things and get to laugh looking at them.